It's not simple, you're right, but history has shown again and again that it can be viable. Society has made a lot of progress.
In the end people can just choose. If someone reading this right now eats meat, then you can make the choice to eat more plants. Please do so as much as you can, that will make a difference in saving the planet!
since there were a few comments, telling me it's impossible that what I experience happens.
Background: I've seen a lot of violence in my childhood, lost my friends more than once through moving or switching schools, have been abused in school by a teacher and felt unwanted in general.
Although I'm smart, I always was forgetful and felt stupid, took longer to understand things than others, one of these would be enough to give depression.
for about 30 years I suffered depression, started when I was about seven up until roundabout 35 years old.
I was only diagnosed with serious depression(suicidal ideation, woke up at night, thought someone evil is in my room, crying a lot, hopelessness, low energy, panic attacks, unable to hold down a job), adhd and some borderline schizoid spectrum in 2012, went to therapy, rehab, and emotion control training.
In 2017 I left the latest rehab with doctors telling me there was no hope.
Up until that point I was the person who would eat anything, didn't care, meat, fruit, carbs, sugary stuff. I love food!
Sept 2017: In the forums Keto would pop up now and then, that was the last thing I hadn't tried the last 4 years so I thought I'd give it a shot. And within a week the depression cleared. And every time I told someone they told me, that it's not okay to eat that much meat, and food can't cause depression, and I should go back to eating "normal". Energy levels where higher than I'd ever known, my mood stabilized.
My finances were down to the last penny, so I had to prioritize meat over everything else, someone mentioned zero carb. At that point I still ate dandelion (picked them in the streets, on lawns, in the surrounding fields) with lemmon juice, just to get in enough fat for the ketogenic diet. I decided to give it a shot. To my surprise, the panic attacks went down within a week, I stopped waking up at night and seeing things that weren't there.
If this experience is placebo, I'm okay with it. No doctor has been able to explain it to me, I don't have any allergies to food, so it has to be something in the gut. I have a sibo-test sitting, but haven't done it yet.
So now, roundabout 5 years later, I've been working since 2019, high performing in what I do, no needless crying, no energy crash, no suicidal ideation. I'm still forgetful, but that's okay.
Baseline eating is 170 grams of fat/70 grams of protein, preferably organic, locally sourced beef, but I'll eat anything meat that comes my way.
Over the years I've tested all kinds of greens and carbs. All kinds of seeds seem to give me hopelessness, while sugary fruit, tubers and processed carbs sap my energy and green veggies seem to give me the idea that someone is watching me. When I don't test for a few weeks, I'm stable and don't get any of these effects.
There are some things I can eat, but even they seem to have a threshold. Currants, glazed onions, Coconut milk
raspberries (A handful a week seems okay, more will trigger symptoms)
artificial sweeteners - curious with these, they make me angry (again 4 days until it sets in)
Off the top of my head, DHA/EPA Omega 3s, Creatine, and Glucosamine aren't really found in plants. I think Choline and B12 are hard to get adequate amounts from plant sources as well.
I think you can live OK without those (I'm vegan), but supplementing the above from non-animal sources is probably a good idea, or at least not a bad one.
There is a lot of non-animal sources for that stuff. We don't need animals for production of dietary supplements.
IMHO vegans need to supplement only B12, as we live in too sterile environments to get enought of it naturally, for other things sufficiently diverse diet should suffice.
Great way to eat if you live in a rich country, or, dunno, California, I guess.
Rather than saying "vegan", why not be honest and just say "Silicon Valley diet"?
"Spirulina", "seaweed", "edamame"... I guess I can enjoy my nutritional definiciencies then, eh? Because there's no spirulina, or edible seaweeds, or edamame within a boat trip of where I live.
Btw: you can't get enough B12 from any of the sources you list. But who's afraid of B12 deficiency, when it's for a good cause, amirite?
I live 10000 km from Sillicon Valley, in not-so-rich country.
You can get your vegan B12 pills from your local eshop, no need to dive for seaweed (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=vegan+b12 - dozens, maybe hundreds of different vegan b12 supplements).
> Btw: you can't get enough B12 from any of the sources you list
You quote a fast food company blog? I'll quote the Vegan Society:
> Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of vegans to be inadequate include human gut bacteria, spirulina, dried nori, barley grass and most other seaweeds. Several studies of raw food vegans have shown that raw food offers no special protection.
> Reports that B12 has been measured in a food are not enough to qualify that food as a reliable B12 source. It is difficult to distinguish true B12 from analogues that can disrupt B12 metabolism. Even if true B12 is present in a food, it may be rendered ineffective if analogues are present in comparable amounts to the true B12. There is only one reliable test for a B12 source - does it consistently prevent and correct deficiency? Anyone proposing a particular food as a B12 source should be challenged to present such evidence.
And also wikipedia which is more reliable and is not trying to sell you anything:
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics considers plant and algae sources "unreliable", stating that vegans should turn to fortified foods and supplements instead.[32]
> I'd love to eat plants a lot. Just turns out they give me depression.(takes about 4 days after ingestion)
I mean no offense, and I'm no vegan (ha ha no), but it sounds like you need a therapist more than you need a butcher. There is no way that eating plants gives you depression. It's even less likely that "it takes 4 days" for it to go off.
> I'd love to eat plants a lot. Just turns out they give me depression.(takes about 4 days after ingestion)
Eat a diverse low-fat, whole plant-based diet - if you don't how or what, find yourself a weekly vegan meal plan. Supplement with B12 and you'll be fine. Learn to cook, explore vegan meals/recipes from around the world, stay away from processed food.
> There is something called bio-availability and there are nutrients in meat that you don't ever get from plants.
That's a lie you've been told. Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
> Transportation is the biggest co2 producer...
Transport, processing, retail & packaging is a miniscule part in CO2 production compared to land use change & farming.
It depends. Humans vary and, while you may thrive on a plant diet, you can't generalize your experience. There are people who have problems even supplementing B12. Others don't. You can't just tell those who have that they've been living a lie.
"More than a half-century of creative marketing by the meat, dairy, egg, and fish industries has produced fears surrounding nonexistent deficiencies, which in clinical practice need no patient monitoring by physicians and dietitians"
Until there are actual serious studies with a large sample population from different parts of the world you can't be sure how many people will be affected and how. Also how healthily you eat is paramount. You can eat vegan trash too.
Btw, while I didn't say the line you're quoting about nutrients missing from plants, the article you're quoting is not very serious looking, with references that 404 and no way to find the actual data that I could find.
And it doesn't say that transport etc is a miniscule part in CO2 production. It says that of all emissions from farming, transport is a small part compared to land use change. But you present it like it's emissions from farming compared to all other emissions. Way to go!
> That's a lie you've been told. Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?
> transport is a small part compared to land use change
Transport is a small part not only to land use change, but also to farming, animal feed and processing. See the graph.
> Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?
B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.
> B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.
Yes, they are. See my other comment to you in this discussion (I've even listed some numbers for you). But I've got a hunch not even that will be enough for you.
I saw your other comment. Here's some more links for you:
Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study
> Vegans have lower vitamin B12 concentrations, but higher folate concentrations, than vegetarians and omnivores. Half of the vegans were categorized as vitamin B12 deficient and would be expected to have a higher risk of developing clinical symptoms related to vitamin B12 deficiency.
The prevalence of cobalamin deficiency among vegetarians assessed by serum vitamin B12: a review of literature
> Higher deficiency prevalence was reported in vegans than in other vegetarians. Thus, with few exceptions, the reviewed studies documented relatively high deficiency prevalence among vegetarians. Vegans who do not ingest vitamin B12 supplements were found to be at especially high risk. Vegetarians, especially vegans, should give strong consideration to the use of vitamin B12 supplements to ensure adequate vitamin B12 intake.
> Most of the edible blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) used for human supplements predominately contain pseudovitamin B12, which is inactive in humans. The edible cyanobacteria are not suitable for use as vitamin B12 sources, especially in vegans.
> (me) Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
> (you) But malnutrition is scarier.
I said that plants & B12 vegan supplements are enough. What I meant is (and was not maybe clear enough), that we as humans do not need to rely on animals, even if we'd be supplementing our diet with some pills (IMHO B12 supplement from vegan sources is enough). You seem to be equating veganism with malnutrition.
American Dietetic Association: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
British Dietetic Association: "As a result of the memorandum the BDA and The Vegan Society will: - Work together to show that it is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding." https://www.bda.uk.com/about/workwithus/bda_and_vegan_societ...
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
With this:
> But malnutrition is scarier.
I replied to this:
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
With this:
> Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?
You have no interest in a curious and intelligent conversation. All you want is to propagandise your vegan ideology. You will lie, and lie, and ignore everything everyone says, unless they say something that suits you.
And even that, you will try to twist to your own purpose. Everything you quote from the American Dietetic Association and the NHS and so on, all that hinges on a vegan diet that is "well planned". Which is very hard to do and most vegans don't manage it. Here's the Vegan society again:
> Most vegans show adequate B12 levels to make clinical deficiency unlikely but nonetheless show restricted activity of B12 related enzymes, leading to elevated homocysteine levels. Strong evidence has been gathered over the past decade that even slightly elevated homocysteine levels increase risk of heart disease and stroke and pregnancy complications.
"Most vegans" ... risk heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications! "Most vegans". Most! Because they don't get enough B12!
But you insist that "plants are enough" and that everyone can get enough B12 from nori and seaweed, which is patently false. And when you're challenged about it, you pretend you've been saying that all along: don't forget your supplements folks! (in parentheses).
Well, why do you need supplements when your diet is healthy? Why do you need supplements if "plants are enough"? Why do you need supplements if you can get enough B12 fron nori and seaweed?
Because plants are not enough. You need a balanced diet to stay healthy and if you cut meat and animal products from your diet your are putting your health at risk.
But you and other vegans will never admit that because it just doesn't look good. You just want people to stop eating meat and if that means never telling them how dangerous that is to their health, well so be it.
I've been a meat eater 40+ years. I wrote that at least B12 supplementation is necessary, you want to ignore that. Maybe I was not clear enough, but then, English is not my first language.
> I didn't reply to this
I've just tried to extract the core of my position, and of yours. Sorry if I was not clear enough (I don't like to spend my time in discussions, so I'm maybe too hasty in formulating my comments).
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
Does it mean you don't need to supplement? Doesn't it mean you may eat only plant-based diet, with B12 supplementation, and then be healthy? Maybe my english is worse than i thought.
> You have no interest in a curious and intelligent conversation. All you want is to propagandise your vegan ideology.
If there is any propaganda, it's of meat & dairy industry. Any connection, cheese queen?
> "Most vegans" ... risk heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications! "Most vegans". Most! Because they don't get enough B12!
Hence the supplementation. Me & my wife have been supplementing from the start, several years now, and take regular blood tests. No problems what so ever. My doctor quipped that he've never seen such optimal blood test as mine is (all values in the optimal range).
> Well, why do you need supplements when your diet is healthy?
Because B12 in the meat is from earth bacteria (ideally, or from vitamins the animals are fed). We wash our food, animals don't. But we can rely on our marvelous production capabilities, and produce required supplements from vegan, non-animal sources, directly for human population.
With veganism on the rise there is more and more fortified foods available, so I suppose it will be less and less problem in the future.
> Because plants are not enough. You need a balanced diet to stay healthy and if you cut meat and animal products from your diet your are putting your health at risk.
No, you are not putting your health at risk. There is where my beef with your position is.
Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier.
> Irresponsible, dishonest, fanatical liars.
You seem very angry, determined in your ways, and nitpicky. I dont' have time to discuss this further with you. Have a nice day!
> Me & my wife have been supplementing from the start, several years now, and take regular blood tests. No problems what so ever. My doctor quipped that he've never seen such optimal blood test as mine is (all values in the optimal range).
What is your doctor measuring?
> A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 micromol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is MMA testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mcg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans.
> If there is any propaganda, it's of meat & dairy industry. Any connection, cheese queen?
My handle is "cheese_goddess" and I'm an amateur cheesemaker, you puerile buffoon.
> Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier.
You are misinformed:
Preventive Effects of Dairy Products on Dementia and the Underlying Mechanisms
> Alongside the rapid population aging occurring worldwide, the prevention of age-related memory decline and dementia has become a high priority. Dairy products have many physiological effects owing to their contents of lactic acid bacteria and the fatty acids and peptides generated during their fermentation. In particular, several recent studies have elucidated the effects of fermented dairy products on cognitive function. Epidemiological and clinical evidence has indicated that fermented dairy products have preventive effects against dementia, including Alzheimer’s disease. Recent preclinical studies have identified individual molecules generated during fermentation that are responsible for those preventive effects. Oleamide and dehydroergosterol have been identified as the agents responsible for reducing microglial inflammatory responses and neurotoxicity. In this review, the protective effects of fermented dairy products and their components on cognitive function, the mechanisms underlying those effects, and the prospects for their future clinical development will be discussed.
> Chicken eggs are an affordable source of protein and other nutrients. They're also naturally high in cholesterol. But the cholesterol in eggs doesn't seem to raise cholesterol levels the way some other foods, such as those high in trans fats and saturated fats, do.
("Similar" is not "better". I'm also not a native English speaker and that's no excuse to not be able to read).
How a vegan diet could affect your intelligence
> Later in life, the amount of B12 in a person’s blood has been directly correlated with their IQ. In the elderly, one study found that the brains of those with lower B12 were six times more likely to be shrinking.
> And, if vegetarian diets show that traditional markers for heart disease, such as “total cholesterol”, are usually improved, this is not the case for the more predictive (and thus valuable) markers such as the triglyceride/HDL (or “good” cholesterol) ratio, which even tend to deteriorate.
Yes society has made a lot of progress - in offering more freedom, luxury and opportunity to more people than ever before - like eating meat.
Give me an example of the reverse happening. We cannot "choose" our way out of this situation by somehow getting the entire globe to agree to want less.
For example, animal cruelty. Over time people have been choosing to abuse animals less and less, and today many societies have an increasing number of laws protecting animals.
There are lots of other examples. Domestic violence against a spouse, and violence against children, are things that have changed a lot. Things that were once considered normal, like marital rape or beating a misbehaving child, are now socially unacceptable in many societies.
You are right that history tends towards more freedom. But also towards being more moral (which can mean less freedom in a technical sense). Eating less meat would be an example of that, and it is happening today, just slowly. If more of us make the effort, we can speed it up and help save the planet. It really is a choice each of us can make right now!
You are also right that we don't need to just wait on personal choices. That might not be enough. We can also get governments to subsidize plant-based food to make it cheaper than meat, for example.
Eating less meat is not "more moral" it's just what you want people to do.
It's always the same thing, when a post is about the environment the vegans come in and start telling everyone to stop eating meat to save the planet.
But somehow I don't see vegans ever telling people to drive less, walk more, wash their clothes by hand, not throw out electronic devices just to get new ones etc etc, it's just eating meat that you want them to stop doing. Yet, the cause of climate change, and its main driver, is burning fossil fuels, not farming. 3/4s of carbon emissions come from burning fossil fuels for enegry production in sectors other than agriculture:
But when vegans are concerned about the environment it's always eating less meat they tell others to do, not burn less fossil fuels. Why? Why is it more urgent to stop 1/4 of the damage to the environment that 3/4s?
It's not more urgent, it's just your ideology that says it's more important to eat less meat than stop climate change.
I wish that HN had clear guidelines against trying to prosyletise people into somebody's political, or metaphysical beliefs.
> It's always the same thing, when a post is about the environment the vegans come in and start telling everyone to stop eating meat to save the planet.
In both of my comments above I didn't ask people to stop eating meat. Just to eat less of it.
> But somehow I don't see vegans ever telling people to drive less, walk more, wash their clothes by hand, not throw out electronic devices just to get new ones etc etc
I and most vegans I know do most of the above. (I'd also add "fly less" to the list, that one has a big impact!)
You are right, the 1/4 is not more urgent than the 3/4. (But let's make progress on all of it!)
Overall, I get that you've encountered some annoying vegans. Some are vocal and toxic. But please don't judge us by that small group. And regardless of what you think of vegans, that's just the messenger, while the message that eating less meat helps the planet is true regardless.
Yes, you didn't tell people not to eat meat "in both of your comments above" (nice hedge, I'll look at your comment history later) but you still only preach about eating less meat and not doing anything else to combat climate change.
That behaviour, which is typical among vegans, vocal, toxic, or whatever, is dangerous and destructive because it detracts from the true source of climate change: burning fossil fuels. Not one of you, ever, never, will start talking about the environment by saying that "3/4s of carbon emissions come from sectors other than farming, but..." or something like that.
Oh no. You folks jump straight into the meat business. And you only comment about the environment when there's a chance to tell people not to eat meat. Because you dont' really care about the environment. All you care about is that people don't eat meat.
And "eat less meat" is just one step towards that. It's not about saving the environment, it's about getting everyone to go vegan.
It's your ideology and you're here to promote it. It's like the Hare Krishna. You care about nothing else but meat and getting people off it. No intelligent discussion, no curiosity, no nothing except "Go Vegan! Now!".
In the end people can just choose. If someone reading this right now eats meat, then you can make the choice to eat more plants. Please do so as much as you can, that will make a difference in saving the planet!