Ask HN: I hate my new job, Need some advice

ColinWright · on May 27, 2015

Think hard: Can you take control of your work and mutate it into something you care about and gives you a degree of satisfaction?

If not, take another job and leave now. Don't hang on, be willing to help find your replacement, be honest and up front.

If there is a chance that you can take control and change the job then go to your boss and say what you think should happen to make the company stronger, better, and offer to help them do that.

If they don't enter a conversation with you about it: leave.

If nothing seems to be happening within days: leave. Accept no excuse.

But if things improve, you've made your job better and helped the company.

But don't feel bad about leaving. You've done some work, you've been paid for that work at the agreed rate, and so you owe them nothing.

Be prepared to try to take control of your own work, and your own future. You are of value - the job offers make that clear - and if your current company doesn't agree, then agree to part.

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Thanks for your comment, Its a small agency but five managers observing and interfering into everything, Iv'e tried to change things, I know I'm not perfect but my experience didn't matter to them and they decided to do things as they were.

you made me feel better.

ColinWright · on May 27, 2015

You're welcome. If you can't take control, and you hate what you're doing, you have to get out. Take a day to plan a definite exit, make a plan, then put it into action. Be clear that you will help them find a replacement, make sure you have somewhere to go.

If you're about to start looking for work you should put contact details in your HN profile, including a pointer to an up-to-date CV.

J-dawg · on May 27, 2015

This may be counter to a lot of the comments here, but please, please, please don't hand in your notice until you have another job offer. I did this a few years ago, and ended up doing crappy temp jobs for months. My savings ran out, I lost all confidence in myself and became visibly nervous in interviews. This created a positive feedback loop as I became more and more desperate. It took me years to fully recover from the experience. I should add that I was not a developer at the time (I came to programming somewhat late), but I think this advice applies to any job.

I never fully appreciated the suspicion you're treated with if you're not currently employed. I don't know if this is a cultural thing (I'm also in the UK). It raises a whole lot of extra questions that you really don't want to have to answer. I've read that some employers even use it as a filtering criterion.

So by all means listen to the other responders and make a definite decision to leave, apply to every job you can. Book some annual leave to attend interviews. But please don't resign until you've accepted another job offer.

UK-AL · on May 27, 2015

As a developer though, there's plenty opportunity to freelance and contract.

Don't have to be tied to employer.

cblock811 · on May 27, 2015

Yeah but that didn't work well for him. I know people who love freelancing, but it would give me anxiety. Hedging your bets with a more solid prospect like working with a company isn't a bad idea.

edwhitesell · on May 27, 2015

Life's too short. Find something you enjoy and leave. At least in the US, if you weren't performing or if you were bringing the team down, that alone could be enough for the company to let you go. Sometimes loyalty doesn't get you very far.

Basically, if you're not happy, find something that makes you happy. Otherwise, your days may be numbered anyway, but not at your choosing.

nthj · on May 27, 2015

Worked in a similar situation for a while. I feel your pain. You have three choices, I followed this progression:

1. Stick it out. You'll become stupid. Remember those hard problems? The ones where you woke up early in the morning, excited to solve? Yeah, those. After a while, you won't be able to solve them anymore. You're out of practice. You can get the skill back, like any other skill, but it's a scary feeling. And it makes the drudgery even worse.

2. Realize this is a business like any other and there are ways to use code to leverage for more cash. I was lucky to be working with only one CMS engine we were using for a bunch of clients, so optimizing was easier. This seems like it may be an even less viable option for you than it was for me. And it didn't work all that well for me, although it was fun for a little while.

3. Get out. This is where you'll end up eventually. But 2 months on a resume looks a lot better than 10, and that's 8 months you'll never get back. And the agency should have negotiated with the recruiting firm that they get your fee back if you leave within 3-6 months, and if they didn't, well, that's on them for being foolish. Your responsibility is to you. When I finally decided this, my life got a lot better, really quick. Good luck. My email's in my profile if you want to talk offline. :)

nilkn · on May 27, 2015

I'm surprised that developers are hard to find and yet the salary offered is £26k (~$40k USD). I guess I'm missing a lot of cost of living context, though. $40k is still paycheck-to-paycheck territory in most major US cities unless you really cut down on all expenses.

jacknews · on May 27, 2015

Perhaps developers willing to work for <$40k are hard to find, and in demand....

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Well I just moved to Manchester and the team at this company seemed cool, I could get around 30k in other places but i chose this one, I regret about it now, But i think 30k should be the average salary in Manchester,

http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=PHP_Developer/Salary...

TylerE · on May 27, 2015

No, that's really what low-end PHP devs get paid.

UK-AL · on May 27, 2015

The trick is not to be a low-end php dev.

artumi-richard · on May 27, 2015

Not just PHP. Here's an advert for a django junior developer in London for £25k.

http://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Titan-Merchandise/jobs/Junior-We...

ujd739 · on May 27, 2015

I relate deeply with you. I am a junior dev with master degree and accepted my first job in a big company without discussing my duties or activities. I asked several times what will be my everyday job and never received a clear answer. I end up doing maintenance on +10 years old application, trying to understand the architectural vision of the people in the begin-mid 2000's. It's hurt me everyday.

Long story short: never accept a job without knowing your daily activities/responsibilities. Never trust the website of a company or the job ad. Ask questions and ask to meet the people you will work with (or at leat a team leader).

I plan to quit this job and I am sending applications. What do you think about leaving before having another job and how to keep busy between two jobs and explain your decision during future interviews?

nbap · on May 27, 2015

I've been in a situation like yours once. I was really upset and didn't know what to do. By that time I was reading a Derek Sivers's book Anything you Want and I was feeling so much connected with the author that I've decided to send him an e-mail telling my story and asking for some advice/guidance. For my surprise, he replied my e-mail on the next day. I think his answer fits to your question, and by the way, it was exactly what I did and it couldn't have been better.

Mr. Sivers's answer: "Quit now. If your heart's not in it, get out. Be honest with [...]. You're not helping them or your self by doing something you're not excited about. :-)"

Don't be afraid to quit.

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Honestly , I think that's the best thing to do, I just didn't have the courage to do it. I have 3 months notice period, So I guess I better hand my notice in this week ..

pavlov · on May 27, 2015

3 months notice even though you started only a few months ago? Is that legal?

I don't know anything about UK employment laws, but at least here in Finland the notice period is capped based on length of employment (e.g. only a month if you've been less 2 years, up to 6 months for 10-year careers).

thorin · on May 27, 2015

Next time try and find out what the job entails before taking it! I guess you are permanent, in which case the recruitment company won't get their full cash until you've been there a few months and you will still be on probation so you could leave easily.

Surely a few months of bad work isn't the end of the world and you are learning more about what you actually want to be doing. Salary isn't amazing, so you could certainly do better. If you really care about your employer you could talk to them about your woes, but do they have anything more interesting to offer?

Best start looking for a contract job now and you can find out whether you like the work first without committing to a longer stay.

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Thanks for your comment, You are right it was completely my mistake to accept this job before knowing exactly what's my responsibilities. I was promised that at least I'll spent 80% my time coding and 20% supporting, but in the past two months it was always bug fixing and boring server management stuff ..

Yeah I'm permanent , at-least it gives me a bit of peace of mind if they haven't paid full cash to recruitment agency. I'm going to talk with my manager today but as you said I don't think they have anything more interesting to offer.

tacostakohashi · on May 27, 2015

Don't beat yourself up about accepting the job - it was the the employer's responsibility to paint a realistic picture of the duties and establish a good fit so as to avoid this situation.

Hand in your notice now and move. You can probably not even mention this role in interviews, because your previous long-term role is still recent. If you find another long-term job you like, you can just leave this as a small gap on your CV, or explain it away as some traveling time, sabbatical, etc. Leaving after six or twelve months is a bit harder to explain away and looks more like job-hopping.

Obviously be as nice as you can about this, offer to help find / interview your replacement, etc, and hopefully they'll return the favour by letting you get to interviews during the day and being flexible with your notice period.

jacknews · on May 27, 2015

Apart from the tricky issue of the P45 (if they still have those); A tax document that lists your previous employer and salary details, which you have to present to your next employer.

axisK · on May 27, 2015

In the short term you'll probably end up feeling guilty about it but it's much better to work somewhere where you don't hate the environment.

Before I started my current job, I already had an accepted offer from another company (Company A). While I had some regrets about accepting the first offer too quickly I put it down to the second company (Company B) reacting slower and that they should probably have moved a bit quicker if filling the position was really a priority (they're interview process took much longer because the CTO was on holiday during the process).

Eventually I did start working at Company A but realized within the first day that my co-workers had almost no passion and some of them had very questionable work ethic. After two weeks I contacted Company B and asked if they would still be interested in me working there and had the difficult conversation with my manager. At some point one of the directors had me explain to a client that I was leaving by my own choice - to this day I'm not even sure what this accomplished.

I ended up being much happier at my current company and didn't have to work in an environment that I hated.

Close friends even commented on noticing a change in my demeanour within the first few days of starting at Company B.

Overall while I would do it again but I think it's also taught me to be careful when accepting a position as well as that it's much easier to rescind an accepted offer before you've started adding value to a company than resigning afterwards.

alinajaf · on May 27, 2015

FYI: £26k is not average for 3 years experience. I know kids straight out of coding bootcamps that started on £10k more than that.

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Probably in London, But in Manchester 26-30K seems average.

acron0 · on May 27, 2015

I'd agree. With that much experience, this is average for most places north of Birmingham.

logfromblammo · on May 27, 2015

I made $40k (£26k) as a raw recruit, straight out of college, as a Java developer. I got bumped to $60k (£39k) the next year. Granted, this was before the dot-com bubble collapse of the early 2000s, and in a large US city, but considering 2-3% annual inflation and that Manchester is still the 2nd largest metropolis in the UK by population and 3rd largest by money, someone like OP should probably be looking for £45k per year with a software-relevant bachelor's degree, and £40k without. Jobs likely plateau around £60k there for more experienced developers, compared with £90k+ in London.

(I am not at all familiar with the European software labor market, so all this is based on the assumption that London is equivalent to New York City and Manchester equivalent to Chicago.)

In London, those top-paying jobs will mostly be in the financial industry and the internationals that only dip their toes into the "alpha" cities. PHP folks won't ever get that high, but the talent vacuum at the upper end will sort of pull up the salaries at the lower end, right along with the cost of living.

Avoid recruitment agencies wherever you can. In the US, they have never helped me one tiny little bit, and have wasted more of my time than I care to consider. And as the original poster has noted, they made a pretty bad match.

I think it very likely that OP should be able to find a better job, at higher pay, within eight weeks. But the search process is exhausting and stressful, and full of stupid hoops to jump through. Seekers are sorely tempted to let other people handle most of the leg work for them. Don't succumb. There's no one else on Earth that will be as invested in the decision to take a new job as the person who will actually be doing the work.

I wouldn't quit today. I would use the fact that I had a job to take the time to make a better decision this time around, and to be more selective with the advertisements, applications, and interviews. With a competitive offer in your back pocket, you can then have a conversation with your current bosses with greater confidence, knowing that they no longer have the power to keep you from making rent.

Edit: Note that the target numbers above are reasonable for your first offer in the salary negotiation, or the upper end of any salary range posted with an advertisement. The actual salary will likely end up less than that, but there is always the possibility that the company agrees to give you what you ask for.

UK-AL · on May 27, 2015

26k is below average full time wage I think. That's 27k. For a developer with 3 years experience to be earning less is not good. Its more inline with 1 year experience.

Developers should be inline with other high paid professionals.

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Thanks for your advice, I'm not really familiar with UK market since I just moved to UK a year ago, so you are probably right. My next plan will be to find some remote works. hopefully I can find some time to work my personal projects as well.

atlantic · on May 27, 2015

You could make more than that doing remote vork part-time. That does seem like a very poor deal.

morganvachon · on May 27, 2015

I'm where you are right now; I like my boss but I don't like the job, and instead of using my talents they are keeping me chained to a sales desk where I cringe every time a sales call comes in. I do my job and do it well, but I could be a much greater asset if they would use me for what they hired me for. So, I'm looking for another job and my boss knows it. Now, he's having me train other existing employees to do my IT and repair duties as they have time, and is planning on hiring another salesperson.

It's my personal opinion that the owner is being cheap; we recently lost our lead sales rep and that's why I got chucked into that role. The rep who left was making three times what I am (he had been with the company for 20+ years) but instead of hiring a replacement at base pay or raising my pay to a level where I could accept the extra duties, he is cheaping out. Now, he's losing me because of it and he admits that he regrets it.

So, I say if they refuse to use your real talents and pay you what you're worth, it's definitely time to move on.

hcho · on May 27, 2015

Well, that's agencies for you. Most of them are terrible places to work and it won't get any better.

Don't worry about recruitment fees. They don't get paid before you complete your probation period.

UK-AL · on May 27, 2015

Digital agency jobs are the worst. Its often quantity rather than quality. Pumping out the cookie-cutter projects, often managed by marketers and graphic designers rather than senior devs.

webtards · on May 27, 2015

This. They pay terribly, the work is usually boring CMS and cookie cutter tasks, and there is undue stress because the overpaid account managers can't even run a basic plan and leave all the coding work till the last minute, even when they knew about it months ago. Grab a nice cup of tea, maybe a rich tea or two, pen and paper, make an exit plan, execute it, and good luck!

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Your completely right, I wish i knew it before i join this company. Its kinda slavery in my mind, put as much as possible work on peoples desk and ask them finish it by end of the week.

jvandyke · on May 27, 2015

My 2p, quit asap. Start interviewing for the other jobs and enjoy your downtime in between jobs. It's not going to get better for you and now you know what working at an agency is like. Appreciate the lesson and move on.

As far as what your current company feels, consider this. Are you producing at the level you know you could? If not, is it really better for them if you stick around? I just heard an example of this from the Design Details podcast where Kim Bost left Etsy to go to a smaller company in arguably a more socially important field. She wasn't enjoying herself not was she capable of doing her best work so she left after 4 months on good terms. It's better for both sides to quit early.

shinta · on May 27, 2015

My advice, leave your job, if you say there is high demand, you have one more excuse. One thing I've learned about working as a coder for more that 12 years is, if you don't like your job, you MUST quit, you spend more time at your job than you spend at your house, you can't be in a place where you feel sad most of the time, because you will feel sad most of the day. Quit and go try to work for a startup, they don't do high traffic/popularity work on agencies. Or do remote.

zhte415 · on May 27, 2015

£26k is not a great salary. I'm not talking about Silicon Valley or even US scales, but that isn't good for saving money to buy a house in the UK. Make sure your next offer is competitive, and be creative in making it so, i.e. "This is my base for this work, for other ... in and above this role, that I've been consistent in, I'd like to expect an adjustment" and base this adjustment on the money value you achieve, or proxy it.

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Thanks for advice, Yeah I accepted it only because this company seemed like a nice place to work, which might be for designers but not for me ...

petepete · on May 27, 2015

There are plenty of jobs in/around Manchester, you shouldn't have a problem finding something you at least enjoy. Concentrate on that first, working out your next career step is much easier if you're in a job you don't hate.

It's worth meeting up with other like-minded people, there are plenty of tech talks at madlab[0] that will be full of people who are hiring or know who is hiring.

Additionally, check out some of better-known agencies for vacancies[1,2,3,4]

[0] http://madlab.org.uk/

[1] https://www.fabric.co.uk/about/recruitment/

[2] http://www.worshipdigital.co.uk/web-developer-manchester/

[3] http://www.magmadigital.co.uk/contact/career-opportunities/p...

[4] http://www.studioskylab.com/careers/wordpress-web-applicatio...

Disclaimer; I know nothing about the PHP landscape, so you may already be at one of the above, or they may be terrible employers. Take care and make sure you don't take a backward step.

payamb · on May 27, 2015

Thanks HN People, You certainly made me feel better. I'm going to hand my notice today ! Now I know what kinda of work should i look for next time ! Cheers !

spdionis · on May 27, 2015

This is the biggest danger of working in PHP actually. A lot of people do very cool things with PHP (despite the haters) but more people do the exact exceedingly amazingly boring work you describe. When interviewing for a PHP position you have to be very careful about what you're getting into.

EDIT: Not saying that there is no boring work in other languages, but in PHP it's more common.

smtddr · on May 27, 2015

Just quit. It's not worth it. Sure, you may feel bad for the company but just know it's not like they'll go bankrupt if you leave(right?). I had to do that once, it was painful and I never had to do that before. Though I did try to work things out at first, after a month on the job it was clear it wasn't going to pan out. I even found out that someone else quit after 5 days for the same reason not long ago. I couldn't even do the 2-week notice thing, I just called my manager into a private office one Friday evening after everyone else left and just said, "I'm out. This isn't at all what I thought it was going to be". I put in my email to the manager that the whole thing was totally my fault[1]

Looking back, it was definitely a case of me ignoring the warning signs and being too hopeful.

1. At the time, I didn't see it that way... but I just don't like putting people in bad situations. I was leaving for a better gig, why not help the person taking the fall have a softer landing?

theaccordance · on May 27, 2015

Don't worry about the company, they need a motivated and happy worker and from what you've written, you're not that. They also may not be on the hook for the fee if you leave within a certain amount of time.

Plan your exit, whether that's now or once you land another job, and don't look back.

austenallred · on May 27, 2015

It looks like you really hate this job. "I feel pain everyday I want to go to work" is not a healthy way to feel. It seems to me that the only correct answer is to take another job.

There's no worse hell than spending 1/3 of your life doing something you hate, and spending 1/3 of it dreading that soon you have to go back soon. (The other 1/3 is sleeping). It just wasn't a good fit, that comes with the territory of hiring. They'll understand.

It's really honorable of you to consider the company's time/money/feelings, but sticking around will just be delaying the inevitable and making yourself (more) miserable.

jusio · on May 27, 2015

TLDR version: find another job.

If you hate your job, you better leave it. No matter how professional you are, it will show up on your quality of work, you will start slacking off eventually, and it will make you worse programmer than you are now. The fault is entirely on the company who hired you. They've seen your CV, they knew what kind of work you were going to do. I doubt they've even asked about this stuff. So it isn't your fault, and staying at this job will only hurt you. So you should find another job (but be more careful in choosing your next company).

Jack000 · on May 27, 2015

I think the "fail early" advice is applicable here.

I left my (quite rewarding) job of 3 years to travel and it was a very difficult decision. In retrospect I should have left much earlier, but instead I waited until I owned several big projects. I quit a few months after receiving their "employee of the quarter" award, still feeling pretty guilty about that one.

If it's obvious that the situation isn't sustainable and that you'll have to leave sooner or later, sooner is preferable from all sides.

Milner08 · on May 27, 2015

£26K seems pretty low, there are many graduate entry jobs with a higher wage than that. I do agree with the top comment though, If you can make a change, if you can improve the job your doing at the moment then you may find its better than another job you could end up with. I'm not really speaking from experience, but talk to you managers and see what they can do for you. Im sure they wouldn't want you to quit, and if they aren't fussed then you know its not the job for you.

Udo · on May 27, 2015

It looks like you're on the verge of quitting anyway, so why not march into your supervisor's office and tell them exactly what you just told us?

Ask them if there is a position within the company that's better suited for you, or propose to create one that benefits both you and the company. If none of this is in the cards, at least you tried to work it out with them instead of just sending them a notice and going away. At this point you don't have a lot to lose, do you?

brudgers · on May 27, 2015

The question that comes to mind is, is it more the job or Manchester? By which I mean that if moving to Manchester is a source of unhappiness, then switching jobs may mitigate the issue a bit, but won't solve the whole problem. Of course, Manchester may be fine, but I only bring it up because it is at the head of your post, and it is presented as something about which you did not have a choice and things about which we have no choice can be sources of unhappiness.

Good luck.

alain94040 · on May 27, 2015

Nothing to worry about: find a great new job and move on. You don't owe your current employer anything. You clearly don't like your current job, so change it.

You'll feel so much better afterwards.

Recruitment fees are none of your concern. And frankly, working for a digital agency, what did you expect? Pro tip: for your next job, ask for more money. The higher your salary, the better you are treated.

beat · on May 27, 2015

Don't feel bad for them. Their recruiting process failed, or their internal processes have failed, if they brought someone in and can't make them happy. They're a business. Mistakes happen. It won't put them out of business to lose you - especially if you give them a comfortable notice.

payamb · on May 27, 2015

It was a bitter experience for me, Also I've learnt a great lesson : Don't trust recruitment agencies any more.

beat · on May 27, 2015

Some recruiters are really good. Most suck. Good recruiters will carefully match candidates to positions. Bad ones will throw whatever has a chance at the problem.

Find good recruiters and only use them. Ask for recommendations from friends if you don't know any. Recruiters are highly valuable because lots of jobs are never really published.

gorbachev · on May 27, 2015

Do not stay in that job any longer than you have to.

It's not good for you (you're missing out on better opportunities and developing your skills), and it's not good for the company (you're not motivated and your work effort is not 100%).

petervandijck · on May 27, 2015

Get a job that's not an agency but has an in-house product (you seem to enjoy that much more), then leave.

Give them a few weeks' notice, you don't owe them anything else really.

jacknews · on May 27, 2015

£26k is the UK average salary for an experienced developer, in 2015 (not 1995)? Don't think I'll be moving back anytime soon then...

SuddsMcDuff · on May 27, 2015

£26k is definitely on the entry-level side. I'd expect most graduates to be looking for that kind of sum in their first role. I have 8 years experience and my salary is more than double that.

OP - it sounds like you're worth way more than £26k ;)

dijit · on May 27, 2015

In London is more like 45-50k.

sdalfakj · on May 27, 2015

Gimme gimme