In some ways, Linus is not wrong.
Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone.
This does not mean you run around screaming at people, usually, that gets you fired.
However, these folks have formed their own community, and set the rules of conduct for it. If she wants to try to change those, great. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though)
Essentially, she wants the community to change not because the community wants to, but because everyone else outside the community wants them to.
This seems, without thinking very hard, quite wrong.
She always retains the option of starting her own community, etc.
Note that even the law recognizes the issues here in the US. Generally, small non-governmental groups can't be forced to open up membership or to avoid discrimination. So the local old boys club generally can't be forced to accept women, for example.
In some ways, Linus is not wrong. Fake civility and fake respect do not usually help anyone.
That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said.
But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though)
Have you read the actual mailing list discussion? She's rather patient, polite and constructive, while Linus spouts mostly BS like the above strawman. So how do you come up with that "agenda" of hers?
If you can't talk with some people, the next best thing is to find people with brains to talk about those people. There is nothing wrong with that, it should be encouraged.
Essentially, she wants the community to change not because the community wants to, but because everyone else outside the community wants them to.
This seems, without thinking very hard, quite wrong.
Then try thinking, it could go a little something like this: maybe, just maybe, she's the first mentally grown up person to stroll deep enough into that mailing list to ever raise the point. This is not wrong, just awkward, and "that's just the way I am" is a response fit for a 5 year old.
"That's still a strawman, and not a valid response to anything she actually said."
Actually, this was Linus's response to what she said, and as I said, he's not wrong. She wanted people to stop spouting verbal abuse and treat everyone civilly. Linus's response was that this is essentially fake civility and fake professionalism, and as I said, he's not wrong.
"Have you read the actual mailing list discussion? She's rather patient, polite and constructive, while Linus spouts mostly BS like the above strawman. So how do you come up with that "agenda" of hers?"
1. Yes, I have.
2. Because she posted on G+ asking for the support of others outside of the community to support her?
The very first line of the post says:
Please speak up, either here on Google+ by resharing this
post, or commenting on this post with words of support. If
you dare, you can also reply to my lkml email.
I'm not sure how you read it another way? It deliberately tries to invoke people who do not participate in LKML
"Then try thinking, it could go a little something like this: maybe, just maybe, she's the first mentally grown up person to stroll deep enough into that mailing list to ever raise the point. This is not wrong, just awkward, and "that's just the way I am" is a response fit for a 5 year old."
No, actually, she isn't. I've been on various versions of LKML since 1998, and she is definitely not the first mentally grown up person to complain. Posting to G+ to get the general support of others not on LKML to go yell at LKML seems, as I said, quite wrong.
Maybe you'd care to explain why you believe Linus is wrong, rather than saying it's a response for a 5 year old?
People have the right to build and associate with the communities they like. She doesn't like his community. How is trying to get random people on G+ to complain about it anything but the response of a 5 year old?
BTW, your tone does not come across as very civil or professional.
2. Because she posted on G+ asking for the support of others outside of the community to support her? [..] I'm not sure how you read it another way? It deliberately tries to invoke people who do not participate in LKML
As I said, after she tried to reason with them, on that list. You know, opposed to copying and pasting lots of flamewars she just came across and blogging about it.
No, actually, she isn't. I've been on various versions of LKML since 1998, and she is definitely not the first mentally grown up person to complain.
That just makes it worse, you know. So they're a lost cause then.
Maybe you'd care to explain why you believe Linus is wrong, rather than saying it's a response for a 5 year old?
"That's just how I am" is shallow unreflected bullshit no matter the context. In context, he's deluded if he thinks he couldn't be just as blunt and firm without making such an ass of himself. He talks about "playing the victim card" right after playing the "that's just how I am card", I'm sorry, but this is so fucking stupid that I'd rather just laugh at it, and anyone defending it. You can make up your narrative for that and think it proves whatever; I just can't be arsed.
BTW, your tone does not come across as very civil or professional.
Because I implied brainlessness? Aww. Well, that last line comes across as passive-aggressive and vague, and I suggest if you want to say something or think you have a point there, just make it. Did I claim I am better? To the contrary, that's why I don't buy the antics of Linus. Even if I did claim I was very civil and professional while not actually being that, it would detract zero from what I said.
"As I said, after she tried to reason with them, on that list. You know, opposed to copying and pasting lots of flamewars she just came across and blogging about it.
"
This doesn't really change my point that it's honestly, nobody else's business what a given community decides to set for it's rules, unless that community is somehow impinging on other people's rights.
Here, it isn't. They keep to themselves. So yes, in some sense, if she can't get people in the community to agree, she should take her ball and go home. Appealing to mass authority in an attempt to generate pressure is not cool.
If i want to form a group of assholes that write software, that's on me. If you want to participate in my group of assholes, that's on you.
Asking random people on G+ to whine at me for being an asshole in that group is just childish.
This does not mean you run around screaming at people, usually, that gets you fired.
However, these folks have formed their own community, and set the rules of conduct for it. If she wants to try to change those, great. But this should be a discussion for members of that community, not one of trying to get the world writ large to come down on them. (At least from where I sit, she is trying to do the latter, rather than the former. Maybe i'm misreading it though)
Essentially, she wants the community to change not because the community wants to, but because everyone else outside the community wants them to.
This seems, without thinking very hard, quite wrong.
She always retains the option of starting her own community, etc.
Note that even the law recognizes the issues here in the US. Generally, small non-governmental groups can't be forced to open up membership or to avoid discrimination. So the local old boys club generally can't be forced to accept women, for example.