> "You can't respond with the cliché brainwash argument either. Culture is always brainwash."
Your logic is bad.
I more-or-less agree that "culture is always brainwash." The logical follow-up is not, "Let's therefore accept all cultures that don't immediately, viscerally violate our sense of right and wrong"; it's, "Wow, culture is fundamentally really messed up! But I don't want to live in a society that eliminates it completely. How much messed-up-ness am I willing to endure to get the benefits of culture -- namely, consistency in what I'm expected to deal with every day, social stability, a sense of unity with my neighbors and countrymen, a sense of heritage, and various intangibles?"
> "I am saying we need to be careful of what we are criticising. A lot of cultural norms are always arbitrary."
So criticize all of them! The problem here is that you're working off the premise that our own cultural norms are somehow above critique, which is simply untrue.
However, I think that, even on close inspection, many of our culture's norms do more good than harm. I honestly think that most Americans would be (marginally) unhappier if it became culturally acceptable in America to walk naked in public (even if we let a generation pass so that there's no cultural shock) -- whereas I'm quite certain that at least a majority of people living in societies that force women to cover themselves and act subservient would be happier if their communities' cultural norms allowed women to act like women of first-world democracies. That's what distinguishes our cultural norms from theirs. And if any of our norms fail the shit test of "does it make life better?," for God's sake let's throw it out.
> I more-or-less agree that "culture is always brainwash." The logical follow-up is not, "Let's therefore accept all cultures that don't immediately, viscerally violate our sense of right and wrong"; it's, "Wow, culture is fundamentally really messed up!
What I am saying is the following: A common argument that comes up is usually. (a) Woman are forced to wear hijab. It is demeaning & cruel & oppresses women. (b) I choose to wear it. I find it dignified & liberating. (a) You are brainwashed.
All I am saying that (a) does not have a convincing argument. It is not (if you read up the thread) comparable to US rural slavery because they people being oppressed (if they are) by their own culture. Brainwashed is no argument at all in this case because it is applicable to any element of culture & can be used to argue virtually any point (you are brainwashed not to wear hijab, pray, respect your husband, etc). Accepting that argument in principle necessitates accepting an argument giving equal weight to the counter-argument.
> So criticize all of them! The problem here is that you're working off the premise that our own cultural norms are somehow above critique, which is simply untrue.
I am certainly not doing that. I am saying watch what you argue. "Islamic/Arabic cultures are oppressive" is a popular argument to make these days.
Many of the aspects of these societies, practices, traditions & laws are indeed oppressive. Many of these countries are military dictatorships or monarchies. A lot of the arguments are indeed correct & needed. But (and this is a big but) we cannot let this degrade (we have, but lets pretend) into an area where anything is admissible. Look at the defence that the argument in this thread got. The argument was almost "Muslims think women can't swim." And if we look at the context, it was in response to an article that said a woman found it interesting & (within her context) useful to wear these garments. "It smells like a defence of veils.""She mentions veils without enough of a groan" "Well i knew a muslim & he beat hist wife with a baloon"
HN is supposed to be a quarter of a step ahead of the pack. But this is a soft version of Bin Laden like clerics telling stories of Americans sodomising each-other in the streets.
Dress codes are sometimes highly symbolic. But if this is your reason for addressing them, don't you think you should let symbolic concepts be pursued within the context of their own cultures? Otherwise they are an element of culture that gets left alone because it does not much harm or good. It is pretty arbitrary, it is not in itself important & it exists everywhere.
> I more-or-less agree that "culture is always brainwash." The logical follow-up is not, "Let's therefore accept all cultures that don't immediately, viscerally violate our sense of right and wrong"; it's, "Wow, culture is fundamentally really messed up!
What I am saying is the following: A common argument that comes up is usually. (a) Woman are forced to wear hijab. It is demeaning & cruel & oppresses women. (b) I choose to wear it. I find it dignified & liberating. (a) You are brainwashed.
All I am saying that (a) does not have a convincing argument. It is not (if you read up the thread) comparable to US rural slavery because they are being oppressed (if they are) by their own culture in which they are active participants. Brainwashed is no argument at all in this case because it is applicable to any element of culture & can be used to argue virtually any point (you are brainwashed not to wear hijab, pray, respect your husband, etc). Accepting that argument in principle necessitates accepting an argument giving equal weight to the counter-argument.
> So criticize all of them! The problem here is that you're working off the premise that our own cultural norms are somehow above critique, which is simply untrue.
I am certainly not doing that. I am saying watch what you argue. "Islamic/Arabic cultures are oppressive" is a popular argument to make these days.
Many of the aspects of these societies, practices, traditions & laws are indeed oppressive. Many of these countries are military dictatorships or monarchies. A lot of the arguments are indeed correct & needed. But (and this is a big but) we cannot let this degrade (we have, but lets pretend) into an area where anything is admissible. Look at the defence that the argument in this thread got. The argument was almost "Muslims think women can't swim." And if we look at the context, it was in response to an article that said a woman found it interesting & (within her context) useful to wear these garments. "It smells like a defence of veils.""She mentions veils without enough of a groan" "Well i knew a muslim & he beat hist wife with a baloon"
HN is supposed to be a quarter of a step ahead of the pack. But this is a soft version of Bin Laden like clerics telling stories of Americans sodomising each-other in the streets.
Dress codes are sometimes highly symbolic. But if this is your reason for addressing them, don't you think you should let symbolic concepts be pursued within the context of their own cultures? Otherwise they are an element of culture that gets left alone because it does not much harm or good. It is pretty arbitrary, it is not in itself important & it exists everywhere. We would not be seriously debating why bikinis are not allowed at work.
Your logic is bad.
I more-or-less agree that "culture is always brainwash." The logical follow-up is not, "Let's therefore accept all cultures that don't immediately, viscerally violate our sense of right and wrong"; it's, "Wow, culture is fundamentally really messed up! But I don't want to live in a society that eliminates it completely. How much messed-up-ness am I willing to endure to get the benefits of culture -- namely, consistency in what I'm expected to deal with every day, social stability, a sense of unity with my neighbors and countrymen, a sense of heritage, and various intangibles?"
> "I am saying we need to be careful of what we are criticising. A lot of cultural norms are always arbitrary."
So criticize all of them! The problem here is that you're working off the premise that our own cultural norms are somehow above critique, which is simply untrue.
However, I think that, even on close inspection, many of our culture's norms do more good than harm. I honestly think that most Americans would be (marginally) unhappier if it became culturally acceptable in America to walk naked in public (even if we let a generation pass so that there's no cultural shock) -- whereas I'm quite certain that at least a majority of people living in societies that force women to cover themselves and act subservient would be happier if their communities' cultural norms allowed women to act like women of first-world democracies. That's what distinguishes our cultural norms from theirs. And if any of our norms fail the shit test of "does it make life better?," for God's sake let's throw it out.