I'm confused, partly out of my own ignorance but after looking at their site I'm still none the wiser. Do modern cars essentially have some interface that means you can control them electronically? Is this a public interface, like an official standard shared between brands or are they adapting per-brand? Or perhaps even revere-engineering the car's internals in some hacky way? What about from the car manufactures, do they support such things? Would installing this affect your Car's warranty? Are you "supposed to do this"?
And what's their safety record? I guess if they're not saying, it's not something they want to talk about. Or worse, they don't even know because I doubt users are self-reporting.
So many questions. I spent some time on their site but got frustrated and bounced before i could get any real information. It's just talks 'car compatibility' and 'buy now'. Seems to present as a magic box you should just trust.
And while I'm sure I could find answers the fact that these things aren't front-and-center, at least to me, doesn't send the right message. I don't want to just "plug in and go" with something so safety critical. Seems to market as more toy/gadget than "safety first".
Comma is going to be popular with the Tesla refugees who miss the autonomous capabilities.
Note for anyone from Comma reading this: I bought a car recently and limited my search to only Comma-well-supported models. None of the sales people at any dealership I went to had heard of Comma, and this was in San Diego (Comma's HQ).
Every sales rep that I mentioned the Comma to said "awesome, I'm going to tell everyone about that!"
If you want to sell more Commas, start giving demos at dealerships, and you'll soon have every Hyundai and Toyota car salesman in the US selling Commas for you.
Is the dealership going to take on the liability of the unit malfunctioning and crashing the car/injuring a rider? The obvious answer is no, and so you aren't going to see stuff like this on dealers' shelves anytime soon.
To be fair, without the baggage of tesla's ...overzealous... marketing, I think it will be possible for the dealers to pitch for it and yet deliver the message that it's "alpha" and risky.
"Hey you should buy this aftermarket autopilot system along with the car. No it isn't sold by Toyota. It's some small company you haven't heard of. No there's no warranty. Nope no safety data. You have to accept all liability for use. Yeah it might kill you and your kids. But hey, you get to be an alpha tester!"
99% of customers are going to walk out of the dealership after hearing that pitch.
Yeah, they’d walk out because that’s a bad-faith example of a pitch.
A good sales person would talk about any self-driving feature built in (eg lane following) then mention the car is compatible with third-party self-driving products like Comma.ai.
Just like how they talk about brakes, wheels, exhaust on sports cars - all areas customers may mod after purchase.
That's a more realistic and reasonable way for the mention to unfold, but it's still not going to happen. The dealer is (usually) the party servicing the car's warranty, and they will definitely not appreciate or want to support this type of modification when a car is brought in.
Isn't the pitch for Tesla FSD quite similar? You still have to accept all the liability, and take over if software cannot handle it or tries to do the wrong thing.
Well, if they are going to present it that uncharitably then yes, people would walk out. Cars with basic ADAS have been selling just fine, and their ".* assist" features have been sold by dealerships just fine. This just slots into the same category. "Manages your steering on long straight stretches of highways" is not a hard thing to convey.
What you said would be the case if they had the baggage of "full self driving" marketing over 10 years.
You mean present it non-deceptively without exaggerating to the detriment of the user.
What would the developers tell their partners or friends in confidence? Are their claims in confidence supported by evidence that they made efforts to validate in proportion to the magnitude of their claims? Does that differ from what they say commercially? If so, then they are communicating deceptively to further their monetary interests.
That is not to say that other manufacturers are not communicating deceptively all the time as well, but complaining about truthful statements because they do not exaggerate to the detriment of the user for the monetary benefit of the manufacturer is silly.
Why would the dealership take the liability of the unit?! Do you realize that they don't even take the liability of the car itself? (the manufacturer does)
No, it won't be. First of all, it's nowhere near as good as the latest versions of FSD. Second of all, there are more and more alternatives to Tesla EVs every month it seems.
Love the product concept, and I’m all for more open/auditable models of autonomous driving, rather than closed-source dealer models that could be highly variable between models and years. If we’re going to do autonomous driving assistants, comma seems to be my preferred method - on paper, anyway.
For the owners in thread, maybe someone can explain to me the LTE modem requirement of the hardware. WiFi I get (easier to transfer records/video/data), but as someone still tooling around in a 2010 Honda and reluctant to buy into modern spyware-equipped vehicles, I’m wary of adding anything with cellular connectivity that could “phone home” without my consent. If the comma is fully self-contained and wholly offline, then that’s a huge selling point for folks like me who want privacy in our vehicles and a non-networked device that’s harder that’s harder to compromise remotely, and it’d definitely influence my future purchasing decisions so my vehicle choice supports these sorts of aftermarket modules.
One other suggestion (and honestly something I ought to write an essay on at some point): stop using Discord for support/community stuff. I’m seeing a lot of companies offload their forums/socials/support into Discord, and while I see the appeal on paper it’s not ideal for those of us who want to compartmentalize interactions based on goal (e.g., socialization vs vendor support). Just a personal nitpick of mine coming from some degree of community support background and well aware of Discord’s flaws and privacy shortcomings.
Based on the blog post saying they're able to use their fleet (i.e. owners of comma) to train their models, it's probably to send footage back home. Tesla does this too btw.
A friend of mine briefly owned* the autonomous cross-country driving record, using Comma AI. I forget the exact autonomous percentage, but it was above 99%. I want to say 99.4x% but I might just be thinking of Ivory soap, haha.
The record, for reference, uses a traditional Cannonball route from Red Ball Garage in NY, to Portofino Hotel and Marina in Redondo Beach, CA.
2850 miles of American interstate plus a bunch of surface streets at the start and end. All with under 20 miles human assisted.
* the record was taken back by Alex Roy, who has had a series of autonomous cross-country records
To clarify per the article: they sold 10K of their current model, the comma 3X, which launched about July 2023. Total sales of all devices is likely higher.
I especially like how there is next to no mention about safety on the main page. But at least its only $999 and it has AI and 50k GitHub stars, so, thats nice.
They have a basic safety page in the docs [0], which unfortunately has a dead link to their vehicle safety definitions due to a recent PR [1], along with some other safety-related deadlinks in the panda README. Avoiding having to deal with safety is a pretty integral part of their whole process though. They run some basic static analysis/sanitizers/unit tests, and everything past that is out of scope. If you're not okay with that level of verification for your steering control, it's probably not the product for you.
I think it did much better on safety in some tests (no I don't have sources, going from memory :/), but is less capable by design on some more trickier scenarios. Basically pretty much what you would something like this to be.
Meh...AP and Comma are driver aids. They're only supposed to reduce the mental load of driving on the highway, not be complete autonomous driving systems.
They're nothing more than traffic aware cruise control with automatic lane keeping. They're not designed to be used on surface streets, and certainly not intended to allow you to read a book or something while driving.
I'm very interested to hear the experiences of people who are using this. I'm pretty sure my car would support this, but don't want to ruin my car, or of course, die.
It removes almost all driving fatigue for me (RAV4) and I do not intend to purchase a car unless it is supported by comma. I needed a new car and specifically bought this RAV4 because of comma compatibility.
Driving is essentially 3 inputs (gas, brake, steer). I use the comma for steering to keep the car centered in the lane, which is does extremely well. My car has built-in radar cruise control which keeps the speed (gas) and distance from the car ahead (brake), so highway/city driving even in traffic is a breeze.
I have not tried the experimental mode that supposedly has some level of end-to-end capability where the comma controls the gas and brake, and have found the current balance absolutely perfect for my needs.
Something that worries me a little is how comma would handle anomalies. Telsa has such scale that they're likely to encounter more anomalies and their software will learn from them. I'm particularly concerned about the sudden kind of anomalies (e.g. animal jumping in front of vehicle, or a getaway car coming from an illegal ergo uncommon direction); one that comma may be unable to handle, but a human would have very little time to take over from.
Their compatibility page calls out which car models will lose their built-in advanced safety features (such as automatic emergency braking) when using comma, and whether comma replaces the built-in adaptive cruise control. Their FAQ includes:
> Do I retain my car factory safety features with openpilot installed?
>When openpilot is enabled in settings, Lane Keep Assist (LKAS), and Automated Lane Centering (ALC) are replaced by openpilot lateral control and only function when openpilot is engaged. Lane Departure Warning (LDW) works whether engaged or disengaged.
> On certain cars, Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) is replaced by openpilot longitudinal control.
> openpilot preserves any other vehicle safety features, including, but are not limited to: AEB, auto high-beam, blind spot warning, and side collision warning.
The FAQs about comma's automated lane centering and adaptive cruise control also say:
> openpilot is designed to be limited in the amount of steering torque it can produce.
So comma isn't even trying to be the subsystem responsible for handling sudden surprises. It's only trying to upgrade a suitably-equipped car from SAE Level 0 or Level 1 up to Level 2.
Most integrations I've seen are plug and go. Unplug and it's like stock. It influences CANBUS messaging while integrated. Twists the wheel, pushes brakes or gas for you.
You nudge the steering wheel for torquey curves, and takeover to take exits, or to correct incorrect assumptions.
Despite all the FUD in the comments, the Comma is the single best thing I've ever added to any car, ever. From now on, I'll only ever buy a car that's compatible. It makes me feel safer by a huge margin (I might or might not have fallen asleep one night on a long road trip and awoken to my car driving along happily, and there may or may not have been numerous times when my car stopped me in time). Driving fatigue is nearly eliminated, and comfort for passengers is higher.
It's far better at driving than either FSD or Autopilot, though it doesn't navigate or change lanes without input, but for long road trips those things don't matter to me at all.
I bought a car in 2023. It's my first ever. I was 55 years old.
I am a lifelong cyclist and motorcyclist. I love bikes. But in 2023 I had a debilitating accident with life-changing injuries, and I had to stop riding upright bikes.
I now drive several times a week. I still don't like it. But I do understand the pressures and risks facing car drivers much better. Oh, and this car is an automatic, so I understand those more too; I had never driven an automatic before, because I'm not American. I learned to drive in 1986 or so, and got my license about 20 years later. 100% manual gearboxes all the way.
Making cars safer for the occupants and easier to drive is THE WORST THING TO DO. There are decades of research in risk compensation demonstrating why.
This company's own webpage is awful. It merely says:
«
The comma 3X is custom hardware designed to live in your car, and purpose built to run openpilot.
»
It does not explain what "openpilot" is or does, and does not even bother to link to it.
> I might or might not have fallen asleep one night on a long road trip and awoken to my car driving along happily
My nightmare is getting smashed to pieces by people like you and your insurance refusing to pay because you found it funny to fiddle with your car. You being bankrupt will not help me.
If OP had not been using a Comma, they still might have fallen asleep at the wheel that night. With the Comma, a crisis was averted. Without the Comma, they would almost certainly have wrecked.
If you fall asleep at night, your car shouldn't just happily drive around with some alpha software and hope for the best. Instead, the car should WAKE YOU THE FUCK UP when it detects you're becoming fatigued/drowsy and tell you to get some sleep. Driver fatigue/drowsiness detection is nothing new and implemented in lots and lots of cars. Get one of those instead of resorting to some dubious software which is most probably illegal to use in most countries.
I run a C3X in my 22 prius, running SunnyPilot, a fork of openpilot, so my comma has many features not in the stock software, like stopping at red lights.
Arming cruise control will lightly take over your wheel, letting it lane keep and steer the car at light turns. You can take control back at any point by using the wheel yourself, and at steeper turns like taking a left at an intersection, it asks you to take over the steering until the turn is completed.
Setting the speed is basically autopilot. I could probably drive from los angeles to vegas without touching the wheel or pedals, as long as you get on the highway first.
Its really bad at stopping at stop signs, it slows down to 10mph and continues. Red light detection needs to be better, but it will stop a little ahead of the line at a stop light 90% of the time.
Lane changes are a breeze, just not completely autonomous. Flick the stalk whichever direction and it changes lanes 2 seconds after. It'll even use the blind spot cameras and abort a lane change if need be. Blind spot cameras on the prius dont detect if theres a car just ahead of you that you could turn into, so its not Commas fault, but Teslas Enhanced Autopilot is better at that.
I, love, my Comma. It's turned my mildly safety-featured car into a relaxing future-proof personnel carrier. Keep your eyes on the road or It'll yell at you. It's not level 5 by a long shot, but because it's open source, it just keeps getting better and better over time. The minute AGI comes out, my car is Level 5 ready.
If anyone from comma is here, what is the state of transformer based world simulator. I recall watching a talk about it year ago but haven’t heard anything since.
roughly speaking, the latest policy models trained in it are indistinguishable from openpilot release on 15-30 mins of driving, but you start to notice the subtle issues (e.g. turn cutting) on a few hours of driving.
we'll definitely do some good writeups and/or talks once it's shipped.
The website doesn't mention any other country. It doesn't say if it was tested in other countries; it doesn't say if it's even legal in other countries. Does the pilot know the signs and driving laws outside the US?
If the website is not clear about it, I'll assume it won't be well supported in my country.
OpenPilot doesn't attempt to handle signs and driving laws, it's basically just better lane keeping assist and cruise control. You are still responsible for setting cruise speed, etc.
I checked their team page, repositories and bounties. It is lovely to see things so well structured around an open source product that encourages everyone to contribute, share, even get paid.
I will keep this in mind for our team calls as a brilliant reference.
I've never heard of this so I've got a silly question - I own a Subaru Outback base model with adaptive cruise and lane keep. What is the difference that this offers?
Your subaru lanekeeping doesn't try to murder you? On a freeway or other uninterrupted left line, be in the leftmost lane. Start passing a semi trailer. The car wants to hug the middle, as usual, but I steer slightly to the left to be safe. After passing the truck, release grip slightly on the wheel.
Car Immedialy swerves into the right lane. At whatever speed you're going.
Our Subaru doesn't have lane change, so this is a fucking horrific bug that will kill someone by putting them under a semi.
I can repro this at most speeds on any road that meets the above condition.
Yes, I know the issue you're talking about. The fix I've found is to always maintain the same grip on the wheel. If you want to change it up then yank the wheel a bit to let it know you're there and then do so.
I'm surprised it got implemented in such a manner.
It will give you truly hands-free lane centering with eye tracking rather than ping-ponging between lane lines and continual steering wheel nags. If you’re doing a lot of highway miles, it would be a big quality of life improvement.
Personally, I find that “autopilot” style features makes me a better driver because I can spend more time focusing on the road ahead rather than splitting my attention to oft-arbitrary tasks like speed limit compliance. However, I know this doesn’t apply to everyone. If you are the sort of person for whom less active involvement impairs your ability to stay engaged in the executive task of driving, this will exaggerate the sense of disconnection even further.
In early 2020 I used a Comma 2 on my Honda Civic for a few weeks.
It had one failure, but the way it failed was so alarming I'm hesitant to ever try them again. It not only failed while engaged, but it froze which meant it still showed the bright green outline indicating "I'm still engaged!" with no alert sounds, visual indication of disengagement, or automatic restart.
I only noticed something was off when my car started to drift outside the lanes during a curve, which took me longer to notice than necessary because it still looked engaged and it looked like a somewhat typical case of understeering until I started exiting the lane. It also never booted back on again, so something went seriously wrong during an otherwise routine drive.
Stock driver assistance systems (e.g. Rivian Driver+, Tesla Autopilot) have redundant computers it can fall back on if the primary fails. If Comma offered a self-contained device that was demonstrably redundant at a hardware level I'd be willing to give it another shot!
What is the experience driving the car? "You are still driving the car"—is it akin to tesla's autopilot, or is the experience difference? In some 3 y'o videos I see individuals driving without hands on the steering wheel—not sure if that is what the experience is like day to day with the device (?).
If your navigation software says "Continue on I-50 for 350 miles", you will likely not need to touch the steering wheel for that stretch. If it says "Take exit 123 in 1/2 mile", you grab the wheel, take the exit, and let the comma take over after that decision. It feels more like a competent copilot than a full driver replacement.
What's the chance that a driver will sit there for 350 miles and not pull out their phone, fall asleep, or otherwise drift off while sitting for hours doing literally nothing but required to be fully alert.
Comma uses its driver-facing camera to detect is the driver is paying attention vs. looking at their phone or falling asleep. It chirps at you if you’re distracted and will eventually disengage if you’re not paying attention.
The legal situation is the same as FSD. You remain the driver in control at all times, regardless of steering assistance being provided. If you want to drive a car without your hands on the wheel, well that's a personal choice. It's not fundamentally different than taking your hands off the wheel with cruise control engaged.
Yeah I don’t use my hands on the steering wheel when the comma is engaged. Haven’t spent much time in Tesla’s to know how it compares, someone else might know better.
First, it senses the weight of your hand on the wheel. Whenever it steers, it senses the torque on the wheel from your hand. Even if your hand is moving with the wheel, you will end up applying a tiny amount of torque that it senses. However, when driving straight, I often find it warning me to apply a small amount of torque on the steering wheel so it knows my hand is there.
Second, there's a camera behind the rear-view mirror that detects your gaze. If it thinks you're looking at your phone or the touch screen for more than a few seconds, it tells you to watch the road.
Would love to try Comma, very disappointed they don't seem to support the entire category of cars I have any interest in owning (Mercedes-Benz S class, Lexus LS, BMW 7-series). Acura and Audi don't really compete at this level, despite being in the same brand segment as others I've listed.
Congrats to Comma! I’ve had a Comma 2 and then upgraded to Comma 3. It really is a game changer on long trips. It’s also fun trying out all of the different forks, and experimental features.
And what's their safety record? I guess if they're not saying, it's not something they want to talk about. Or worse, they don't even know because I doubt users are self-reporting.
So many questions. I spent some time on their site but got frustrated and bounced before i could get any real information. It's just talks 'car compatibility' and 'buy now'. Seems to present as a magic box you should just trust.
And while I'm sure I could find answers the fact that these things aren't front-and-center, at least to me, doesn't send the right message. I don't want to just "plug in and go" with something so safety critical. Seems to market as more toy/gadget than "safety first".
Same with Tesla, mind.
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