This isn’t rocket science. Israel has killed more than 13,000 children in less than 5 months. This is only counting the children. That’s almost 4.5 9/11’s in children alone. And our (Americans) taxpayer dollars is helping sponsor these war crimes.
Israel has one of the most advanced military and intelligence apparatuses in the world. And Palestinians are some of the most surveilled humans in the world. Israel knows where they’re dropping the bombs and the demographics of the humans who live there. No amount of gaslighting the international community and unsophisticated normies changes this fact. There’s no excuse for these war crimes and it’s an utter shame that the West, led by America, continue to allow Israel to use the tragic events of October 7th as an excuse to murder innocent Palestinian civilians (most of whom are children).
Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas, the same people who claimed 500 people died in a hospital Israel bombed but when it was revealed their own rocket bombed it the casualty numbers dropped 10-fold, war isn’t arithmetic.
The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists but doesn’t allow civilians to shelter, it’s tragic that Hamas is killing its own people this way but Israel should continue until Hamas is defeated like Germany was.
For the record, it was debunked that it was a Hamas rocket as none of them had that potential yield and still do not. The ordinance for that explosion only had one provenance: the United States.
> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas […]
This is an unserious argument.
1. The numbers come from Gaza’s Ministry of Health, which is indeed “controlled” by Hamas since Hamas is their governing entity.
2. The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers. In fact, it’s quite the opposite: The Ministry’s numbers have held up to scrutiny in ALL of the previous wars (including scrutiny from Israel) [0].
3. The Biden Administration has corroborated the numbers.
4. Israel hasn’t denied the numbers. In fact, in one report from the IDF a couple months ago, they corroborated the Ministry’s numbers at the time.
5. The same silly argument could be made to dismiss just about anything coming from Israel given their documented history of lying and even manipulating our (American) media, from lies about beheaded babies [1] to pushing propaganda via U.S. media outlets like the New York Times [2].
> The United States killed many more Japanese civilians than American civilians who died during the war, that doesn’t make them right. […]
This is just a whataboutism and another unserious argument.
One evil act doesn’t justify another evil act. This is as serious of an argument as someone trying to justify slavery in 2024 by pointing to America’s history with slavery.
> The Ministry has no verifiable history of being wrong on the civilian casualty numbers
This is laughable. They claimed that Israel bombed a hospital and killed 500 people that the Palestinians themselves bombed. You are either hopelessly biased and unserious or uninformed.
I'm afraid you broke the site guidelines repeatedly and very badly in this thread. That's not ok. You're welcome to make your substantive points while respecting HN's rules, and indeed they will become more persuasive if you do so. But please, no more snark, name-calling, personal attacks, or flamewar posts—no matter how right you are or feel you are, and no matter how divisive the topic.
"However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket.
Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely."
Even Human Rights Watch (anti-israel propaganda outlet at this point) has said it was a Palestinian rocket:
"However, the sound preceding the explosion, the fireball that accompanied it, the size of the resulting crater, the type of splatter adjoining it, and the type and pattern of fragmentation visible around the crater are all consistent with the impact of a rocket.
Evidence available to Human Rights Watch makes the possibility of a large air-dropped bomb, such as those Israel has used extensively in Gaza, highly unlikely."
That's not what "debunking" means. It's an article that disputes the current consensus that an errant rocket from Gaza exploded in the hospital. Having the debate is fine (if it's on topic), but preemptively declaring the debate over, misrepresenting the consensus on the issue, and accusing those asserting the current consensus of "misinformation" is disingenuous, and you can't do that and still be civil.
> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas
The UN and Lancet [0] believe the numbers are credible. Let's not forget there are likely 10k+ civilians still burried under rubble too.
> Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists
Come on, you are not commenting in good faith. There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place, Hamas have staunchly denied it, and from what returning hostages have said it seems incredibly unlikely. There is however an abundance of evidence that Israel is trying to use rape as attrocity propaganda.
> it’s tragic that Hamas is killing its own people this way
This is absolutely absurd - it's like telling a domestic violence victim it's their own fault.
You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened?
“UN team says rape, gang rape likely occurred during Hamas attack on Israel”
UN: “The mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity.”
> You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened
Firstly, the latest figure from Israel is that 695 Israeli civilians were killed, with the rest being security forces. Of those 695, many were armed settlers.
Secondly, the fact you assume rape did occur, especially in the total absence of any evidence, is bizarre, and suggests you may have some deeply-seated biases against Palestinians and/or Muslims.
As I explained in another comment here [0], the UN report is a farce insisted upon by Israel to aid in laundering their lurid attrocity propaganda. The report is not the result of an investigation, it simply regurgitates what Israel presented to Pramila Patten. From the report:
> As a result of the aforementioned challenges, it must be noted that the information gathered by the mission team was in a large part sourced from Israeli national institutions. This is due to the absence of United Nations entities operating in Israel, as well as the lack of cooperation by the State of Israel with relevant United Nations bodies with an investigative mandate
Interesting that it does not bother you that Israel has been indiscriminately bombing civilians BEFORE October 7th as well as engaging in night raids all over the west bank, resulting in one of the deadliest years for Palestinians in the West Bank - again BEFORE October 7th. But somehow, their lives are worth less than the ones tragically lost on October 7th?
Second, as an occupier, there are no internal border. As the United States and Israel do not recognize a Palestinian state, they did not cross a border, they broke out of their concentration camp.
“In the medicolegal assessment of available photos and videos, no tangible indications of rape could be identified,” the report concluded.
> has been indiscriminately bombing civilians BEFORE October 7th
What do you think Hamas firing rockets into Israel is doing?
> their lives are worth less than the ones tragically lost on October 7th?
No. Equal. We need a framework that stops cycles of retribution and saves the most lives long term. Probably imposed by an international coalition since it's easily observed that groups of people obviously respond to massacres against them with more retribution.
> As the United States and Israel do not recognize a Palestinian state, they did not cross a border, they broke out of their concentration camp.
Are you going to treat the invasion of Taiwan the same way? Since US "doesn't recognize it," it's fair game for them to butcher thousands taking Taiwan?
Concentration camp is ridiculous hyperbole. Gaza is dense overall but half of it isn't https://maps.app.goo.gl/hNEpzVno4z5n9WQH9 . Do you expect the Israeli's to currently allow Gaza to freely trade and receive as many weapons as Hamas desire? Egypt supported the blockade. October 7th would've been 5x worse. Strengthening Hamas' weapons just extends this horrid conflict. Israel was relaxing the travel restrictions and more people were border crossing until Hamas attacked. What kind of message does that send to Israel about letting their guard down?
How do you propose to fix this? You want a ceasefire and Palestinians integrated as Israeli citizens in a 1 state solution? There is no will for this from Hamas. Their 2017 charter wants 1967 borders, your "concentration camp," yet they attack outside of it.
I abhor any rapes perpetuated against humans of any kind. Why are you deflecting my correction that GP’s “There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place” is wrong?
"The Grayzone is an American fringe,[7] far-left[19] news website and blog,[23] founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal"
"It is known for its negative coverage of American foreign policy,[1][4] misleading reporting,[25][26] and sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes."
Again debunked, the UN investigation did not speak to any victims or physicians that would validate the claim. The claims came from organizations known to have lied in the past. Why would Israel forbid the doctors involved from speaking to the UN?
Just to make things clear. Few people are denying that sexual violence did occur. These were a bunch of men doing a bunch of violence to other people, I would be shocked if none of them did sexual violence.
What people are debunking is the notion that Hamas used sexual violence as a weapon of war. There are no evidence for that (nor for sexual violence at all, it is just that it is very plausible). And the use of such stories in propaganda purposes.
This is in contrast to the Israeli military who has been recorded using sexual violence as a weapon of war against Palestinians on multiple occasion.
What makes this disgusting, is the use of stories of sexual violence to propagandize anti-Palestinian sentiment. Sexual violence is a horrible crime, that is truly horrendous for the victims. The victims of such crimes deserve better than their horrors being used to justify other crimes.
There are no confirmed accounts of rape, and the NYT Hamas hit piece that is re-laundered daily by the MSM has signs (such as Anat Schwarz) of Israeli intelligence all over it.
Regarding the UN report, it is not the smoking gun you seen to think it is, though I can see why you'd think differently if you only read the "highlights" from MSM - go ahead and read the report [0]:
> As a result of the aforementioned challenges, it must be noted that the information gathered by the mission team was in a large part sourced from Israeli national institutions. This is due to the absence of United Nations entities operating in Israel, as well as the lack of cooperation by the State of Israel with relevant United Nations bodies with an investigative mandate
Pramila Patten didn't "investigate" anything; she previously said on this: "It's not my role to investigate" - her job was to repeat what the Israelis told her. While in Israel she even met with proven hoaxers from Zaka, the organisation responsible for spreading many of the putrid attrocity propaganda that came out at the start.
Pramila Patten also infamously made the incredible, unsubstantiated claim that Russia gave their soldiers viagra and sent them out to rape Ukranains. She's a well-known fraud [1], who now sits in a position created by Hilary Clinton - who herself infamously spread false rape propaganda about Libya.
I feel we are now at an impasse, and so I won't be engaging in this thread any further.
> Is there a number of civilian casualties after which Israel is not allowed to keep fighting to eradicate Hamas?
Murdering over 13,000 children not only does nothing to “eradicate” Hamas, it does the opposite: It creates more Hamas-like groups. All of these women and children Israel has murdered have families, friends, etc. who miss them and will be even more determined now to avenge their deaths.
Isn't the logical extension of this supportive of complete genocide? I don't care about either side in this conflict, but I fail to see how anything short of genocide stops this.
This is what I see:
P: Hamas attacks civilians
I: Responds by saying that this is will never happen again, and they will put their youth into urban combat to ensure it never happens again by eradicating Hamas
P: Engages in urban combat via insurgency, including using civilians as human shields
I: Continues to try and eradicate Hamas. Civilian shields are murdered.
H: If you keep killing civilians, you'll only make more of us!
I: Then come out and fight!
H: No! Keep killing our children.
At some point you have to place the safety of your population over the safety of another population that is currently murdering your civilians and actively stating they want to continue doing so. Plus to my knowledge P still has hostages that they refuse to release.
The problem with your breakdown is the implication that this all started with October 7th, as if Hamas is simply a terrorist group that attacked Israel, unprovoked, for no legitimate reason. I know this is the narrative Israel wants everyone to believe, but the reality proves otherwise.
If the average American had to live for even just a full week under the conditions that Palestinians live under, they would categorically classify the Israeli government and the IDF as the terrorists. I mean, Israel literally has, as a political and military strategy, the concept of “mowing the grass” [0] [1] to periodically terrorize Palestinians and they aren’t even particularly subtle about it.
My phrasing was specific to the Oct 7 attack because that event was the provication of the current conflict.
Despite policies like "mowing the grass" being catalysts for the Oct 7 attack, my point is that Isreal has stated a clear objective: elimination of Hamas. Their terror tactics are described in the Wiki link you provided appear to be supportive of that goal too.
Hamas has also stated a clear objective so far as I know: destruction of the Isreal state (potentially also of all Jews, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say just the state).
I'm undereducated on the issue, but to me it seems that there is no reconciliation of these goals. They are not simultaneously achievable.
My estimate is this conflict could end today if Hamas conceded. What would become of Palestine is a different matter. Their current authority, the PA, seems to have a policy of paying familes for insurgent deaths. Isreal probably won't want them running the show,and they definitely won't want Hamas running it. Other bordering countries like Jordan and Egypt seem to want nothing to do with Palestinians. The Palestinian children appear to be raised to hate Isrealies and are taught to murder, perhaps justifiably (and maybe this is wrong and only propaganda).
I want this fixed, and I can see a path forward where Palestine embraces sovereignty and becomes a mecca of the world by operating as a tax haven for businesses. But in order to do that they need to determine their goal is peace, and ally with other countries for protection against Isrealie aggression. But that is a hard path forward when starting at current state, including the world view held by Palestinians.
And maybe I'm entirely wrong in this post. But my GP post was specific to my perceived, orthogonal objectives of both sides.
Israel has one of the most advanced military and intelligence apparatuses in the world. And Palestinians are some of the most surveilled humans in the world. Israel knows where they’re dropping the bombs and the demographics of the humans who live there. No amount of gaslighting the international community and unsophisticated normies changes this fact. There’s no excuse for these war crimes and it’s an utter shame that the West, led by America, continue to allow Israel to use the tragic events of October 7th as an excuse to murder innocent Palestinian civilians (most of whom are children).