I remember an old Blizzard ad for StarCraft II that made fun of pay to win [1] but alas… here we are.

I can’t believe how good the Diablo 4 release vids looked last week but they’ve been incredibly tainted in my mind by all the shitty stories I’ve been reading about Immortal.

Bums me out as Blizzard IP always has a special place in my heart.

[1] https://youtu.be/0hKHdzTMAcI

I thought the videos looked corny as hell. I'm pretty sure they're going to make Diablo 4 resemble a Saturday morning cartoon, just like Diablo 3. And from the the descriptions of the mechanics, those don't seem to have improved either.

Just resign yourself that the Diablo series and the rest are gone.

Hahahah. Yep.

Their whole pitch on 4 seemed to be "look we're making it HARDCORE again!", which the trailer demo'd to mean "LOTS OF GORE + Marvel movie humor".

It's hard to even articulate what made D1 and D2 as "gritty" as they seem to this day, but it involves politically incorrect and demographically-exclusionary themes that people of a whole different generation made for a PC market that was regarded as "for adults" (kids were supposed to be in the console ghetto).

It's an entirely different world, and Blizzard is a bloated zombie whaling ship.

Also, the genres they're still trying to squeeze money out of (except for Overwatch's) are very outdated: non-4X basic RTS, isometric RPG, MMO. One of those is okay on a phone, but these are all relics of a bygone age of technical limitations (in MMOs' case, then-recently-conquered bandwidth limitations that made a shitty game format interesting because playing with many people was novel at the time).

> D1 and D2 ... involve politically incorrect and demographically-exclusionary themes

Can you elaborate on this at all? I played both on release and while I can think of a lot of gaps between the originals (1+2+LoD) and more modern takes, those differences don't sound similar to what you're thinking of.

I don't see how D2 is politically incorrect or demographically exclusionary. Especially given there wasn't an article about a tweet from someone mad about the remaster.

I vaguely remember the character lead coming up with a slightly more salacious version of the Amazon initially and it was toned down with a skirt and more clothing I think, we only had one woman on staff at that time, also have a very hazy recollection that the guys all asked their wives for their opinion.

A Gheed quote:

"You're a brave soul! I'd sooner thrust my sacred scepter into the foulest, carbuncular trull than set one boot into that cave." https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Gheed

Don't really know if that's considered PC but I suspect there are worse examples that I can't recall well enough to articulate.

Another possible example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo_2_Resurrected/comments/pchu8...

Never once in my life did I ever connect 'political correctness' to the Diablo franchise.

I just clicked on skeletons until they died and then picked up the shiny things they dropped over and over.

You're really overthinking the game man.

From D2 to D3 they completely tore out the Christian mythology and association with the existing legends. Things became kid-friendly. Pentagrams were changed to imprecise scribbles in circles. Angels became "angels" in name only, with a completely new origin story. They removed any concept that anybody was acting contrary to the Christian God, and just made one of the angels the king of the universe. I'm won't go into the Tyrael fiasco.

Basically, expansion of made-up lore and a loss of mystique about connections to the real world ruined the sense of being in an unwieldy no-hope situation. The story instead felt like it was written by a teenager with a power fantasy.

I guess thinking isn't encouraged in the game in general, so your comment makes sense.

The parent (like you) didn't see how D2 could be interpreted as politically incorrect. The parent's parent did. I was trying to bridge the gap.

>Also, the genres they're still trying to squeeze money out of (except for Overwatch's) are very outdated: non-4X basic RTS

If you're talking about Starcraft 2 as being a "basic" RTS, it's not the same game it was at launch in 2010. There's so much content for it with a whole bunch of new Co-op commanders and the Arcade custom modes made by the community are stacking so many mechanics on top of each other it actually gets a bit too much sometimes.

-Infinite upgrades and blasting out the vanilla sc2 game mechanics by upgrading the abilities so many times that it breaks the gameplay, with added zombies which are usually jacked up to insane difficulty, on a tiny rush map with extra income.

-Hero maps that have a good 12-13 systems of powering up the hero.

-Some chill out maps that have you memorizing so many different unit combinations that automatically send in waves across the map and having to finely interpret massive unit battles with different many units and abilities and weekly changing bonuses clashing all at once. There's many more.

Totally agree Blizzard is dead in the water. The old "gritty" vibe in D2 really hinged on being able to unearth core, adult, western values and challenge them with scary demons. It was presented the evil on such a self-evident surface level too, it was great, you didn't have to interpret fine intricate characters, it just presented hateable figures to wrestle with. The narrative kept moving and getting bigger as you got deeper into the "East".

The pixelated look was so good. Like you could pick out individual spots on the map and the resolution was small enough that you could see the exact start and end to most game mechanics and animations. You could do pixel-perfect moves relatively easily and understand the world pieces intuitively, mostly from just looking at it. The late 90s and early 2000s had that sand-like pixelated look to all the monitors and low-res video games. CRTs helped blur it out, but you could still appreciate the grainy-ness and feel like you were in something a bit more concrete and grounded cause you could almost count the pixels on 640x480 (lol).

Ah nostalghia, thanks for the trip!

> The narrative kept moving and getting bigger as you got deeper into the "East".

The soundtrack did an amazing job to cement the movement of narrative. Act 2 in particular, because it’s the first time in the game (from Diablo 1 perspective) that we see a completely different environment within the game.

An all around work of art.

Those game formats still work fine. Hades is an isometric action-RPG that is hugely popular, for example.

Blizzard games are just bad now because Blizzard lost its creativity a long time ago. It's basically an entirely different company than it once was.

> It's hard to even articulate what made D1 and D2 as "gritty" as they seem to this day

Being classic gothic horrors. It had very minimal story, strong visuals and music, and minimal dialogue that didn't gave away too much which made you imagine. Its roots lied in books with engraved illustrations, rather than other products of the modern entertainment industry. This was a common trait of early RPG games.

Diablo 2 was the product of low polygon models transformed into pixels. They could correct their tiles manually, since the pixel count was so low.

Diablo 3 was a high-resolution affair, through and through, which meant it relied on textures much more. It also kept the late Blizzard trick of making everything a bit cartoony to emulate their biggest success, World of Warcraft.

> it involves politically incorrect and demographically-exclusionary themes

Back when we could have blockbuster games with worldbuilding/fantasy narratives that didn’t involve shoehorning whatever currently trendy topics are flying about.

See also: baldurs gate remaster

the only people who think Diablo 3 looked like a Saturday morning cartoon are those who have either never seen a Saturday morning cartoon or have never played Diablo 3.

Apparently you never made it to the unicorn rainbow level. For a while after release it wad the only place to farm any end-game gear.

Cartoon is a very apt description, especially after the ambiance of D1/2.

It was released as a fuck you from the devs to fans, as fans were so disappointed upon release with the game in general, and the lack of a secret cow level.

The game was garbage upon release, it took years to get decent. D3 re-release isn't bad. I'm still playing the re-release of D2 rather than play D3 or Immoral.

I did in fact make it to that level, many times, and it was all the sweeter knowing that inclusion of this level was because of those who complained that D3 looked like a Saturday morning cartoon.

it was made specifically to piss you off, and I am 100% in favor of that. you played yourself with this opinion.

and yes, I have spend MANY Saturday mornings watching cartoons, spread across five decades, and I know what cartoons are like.

your problem is that you believe you are owed the games you want. no one owes you anything! want the D1 or D2 experience again? then play those games! you're an insufferable fart of a human if this thread is anything to go by. I hope you never get to play the games you want to play and I genuinely mean that.

I played D3 the first month after it came out and enjoyed it the great deal. Was in the first wave of players who ever got to Inferno Hardcore.

That's great to hear, but your enjoyment of the game doesn't nullify the sheer volume of issues the game had at and years after launch, nor the tons of players who were shit upon by activistion/blizzard.

I know there was this real money auction debacle, but as I was playing hardcore I did not care.

Meanwhile, it was very playable and I don't remember any issues aside for error 43 (or what was the number)

Well you were one of the handful of players. One person having a good time!= working/good game.

Why does this need to be repeated every time someone has valid criticism of something. Just because it worked for you or you had fun doesn't invalidate criticism.

Here[1] is an article from 2015 (replaced article with reddit list) just listing some of the issues. If you'd google this you'd see all you need, rather than continuing to defend a position with a single anecdote. (added with 2nd edit- and here [2] is an article detailing the things that had to be fixed to make D3 'good'.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/diablo3/comments/vfvkh/diablo_3_and...

[2] https://www.gamespot.com/articles/how-diablo-3-went-from-dis...

Edit 1-removed article as it was a fluff piece. Replaced with a chronological list via reddit.

Apologies for the shitty article.

Edit 2- added article listing the ways it was fixed from release to now.

I played the last season of it on Switch, was OK, but not worth the repurchase. Especially not 10 years later.

>. You probably can't even get through Hell without using the AH or farming items.

I was able to beat Hell with my first Hardcore character and it took under two weeks. I did use some AH, as it was there and a part of overall experience.

I can see people can't find meaning in the gameplay on softcore mode. That's expected.

Indeed, I was the opposite and played only SC in D3 though I loved SC and HC in D2.

I never used the AH because I was that against it, but it was pretty necessary on SC.

Sorry for the repeated edits above.

As a side note, D2 HC on switch is nigh impossible due to the lags and rubber-banding. But i take it as thw trade-off for portability.

> I never used the AH because I was that against it

That's the key part. That was an important part of gameplay after all.

Imagine you would be a mac user and would be against right click and never use it. You will not beat hell as well :)

On the flip side, they're doing away with loot boxes in Overwatch 2 and replacing it with a battlepass and straight-forward shop[1]. Plenty of opportunity to screw that up, of course, but at least it'll be easier to see than having to dive into drop rate algorithms and best guesses at such.

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23171133/overwatch-2-loot...

I liked the formula of having a price and then loot boxes. This is because they had to make the lootboxes content available eventually, which it is what happened: I have all the skins I like and I haven't spent a dime for them.

Being free + bp they can lock all cosmetings behind $$$ and push even more fomo tactings to your face

> Bums me out as Blizzard IP always has a special place in my heart.

This is what they're financializing. It's a cash out, private equity style.

I left over the China deal. They haven’t made anything that’s made me regret it in the slightest.

You and me both. I haven't seen one piece of news that’s made me regret my decision.

For the sibling commenter, the Microsoft acquisition hasn't changed anything that matters. They’re getting the IP, but the minds behind it, the caring about their customers, is long gone.

What do you think about the Microsoft deal?

Its worth noting the MTX language being used for D4: that they are “anchoring” their MTX around cosmetics.

Anchoring. There’s nothing that excludes other MTX in that wording.

Since the debate on D:I's MTX has burnt out a bit, the Legendary Gem MTX scheme of Diablo Immortal is arguably not the biggest threat to the game's longevity. There are more substantial systemic issues with gameplay once you finish the story, such as the requirement for grouping in Hell 1+ dungeons (required for Set pieces) and invisible caps on drops that can be hit in just casual play.

Even though new gameplay mechanics open up by the time you hit 60, by the time you've hit Paragon ~15 you've probably seen everything and gameplay starts to get more repetitive with gear upgrades under multiple layers of RNG. Note that paying real money for Legendary Gems doesn't alleviate this grind except for faster clear.

And they have been unusually stingy with player rewards for milestones/daily logins compared to other F2P games, which isn't a good sign on relenting on some of these decisions. I am very curious to see how retention will be if nothing substantial changes.

Yep, to me Immortal is not Diablo.

It's a mmorpg with a skin of Diablo on top of it. In every Diablo game you could tackle every challenge alone, which is important because at 37 your friends don't play as much as before. In this game the presence of raids and having to group up has made me drop it after hitting the end of the campaign

I don't know what any of that means, but they are looking for the sweet spot for releasing new stuff that's better than the old stuff.

A shame how exploitative this game is because it plays rather well. It also has the same problem as D3 with a complete throwaway story which turns off casual players.

No point chasing the Diablo 2 dragon. The series needs to move on to something more.

Am I the only person here who has actually enjoyed D3's story? I'd rather play the D3 campaign again over doing rifts or seasons just for farming gear.

There are dozens of us -.-

Recent and related:

Diablo Immortal won't release in the Netherlands and Belgium due to loot box law - https://hackernews.hn/item?id=31662430 - June 2022 (129 comments)

It costs $110k to fully gear up in Diablo Immortal - https://hackernews.hn/item?id=31628848 - June 2022 (735 comments)

Recently immortal:

11 days ago, 129 comments https://hackernews.hn/item?id=31662430

14 days ago, 745 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31628848

Diablo immortal is a terrible experience, without question.

also, the number of people in this thread who are obliviously repeating things which have been proven wrong is just as egregious.

people find something that matches their opinion and they never look closer. ever.

this is just further proof that people who know what they're talking about do not visit HN.

I’m curious how these things don’t break anti gambling laws

There's one weird trick Blizzard / Netease used to avoid (some of) these laws. A game system that gets classified as gambling usually does the following:

User pays money > User gets premium currency > User presses button > User gets random reward(s)

Here's DI's version:

User pays money > User gets premium currency > User "uses" item before rift > User plays rift > User gets random reward(s)

That extra step means that instead of simply playing a slot machine with real money, you're playing a (very very easy) game segment that gives you (exponentially better) rewards, since you used real money.

Essentially, that distinction makes DI a game of skill, as opposed to a game of chance.

Most anti-gambling laws require the digital goods to be exchangeable for money in order to qualify. In other words, DI can claim to not be gambling because all outcomes in the rift are equally worthless, financially.

Some countries are starting to change their laws to factor in that these digital prizes are perceived to be valuable by players despite not turning into money.

> In other words, DI can claim to not be gambling because all outcomes in the rift are equally worthless, financially.

This is how MtG gets around the rules as well.

The game is banned in the Netherlands and Belgium.

lol it cost me 4475$ to get two 5 star gems.

Also this is assuming that the system isn't rigged which most likely is.

Is this based on the actual drop rates of the gems?

Looking at the code, the probabilities indeed match what is disclosed in-game: https://dimi777.github.io/diablo-rift-simulator/index.js

Technically it doesn't account for the 50 gem pity, which doesn't change that much EV-wise for getting a 5/5 gem.

To answer the adjacent replies, they are indeed disclosed in game, just not in an obvious place. (press the [i] button at the Crest Vendor)

Screenshot proof: https://imgur.com/a/0NoSUut

It's possible the rate disclosure is region locked which is why some people don't see/know it. Some games do that.

Also great how you have a 4.5% chance of dropping a legendary, only to roll the dice again on getting a "good quality" one. Blech.

They're definitely region locked and for all we know, they might have different drop rates in different regions since they don't have to disclose them... Wouldn't put it past them.

There's several streamers that are running rifts till they get 5/5 gems, they're in the thousands of dollars spent.

Granted the typical rates for 5*s in gachas are 1%-3%...but those typically have a much higher supply of free pulls.

Diablo Immortal doesn't publish drop rates, and uses a legal loophole to avoid laws that would normally require publishing such rates for lootbox-like mechanics.

A community-created estimate from data supplied by players puts the 5/5 gem odds at 1/2000.

Edit: above poster has rates in their copy of the game that seem to line up with the community-calculated ones. They definitely didn't use to be there where I live in the US, so those are either a recent addition or region-locked.

whats the loophole?

The supposed loophole is that you have to complete an Elder Rift to "roll" the crests as done in the submission, versus opening a literal box.

It hasn't made a difference legally, and they are probably losing potential impulse sales due to friction.

Poked my head in at the code

    const gem_types = [1, 2, 5];

    const gem_probabilities = [0.754, 0.201, 0.045];

    const five_star_gem_types = [2, 3, 4, 5]

    const five_star_probabilities = [0.75, 0.2, 0.04, 0.01];

Kind of odd they excluded three and four, and everything I could find searching online says that it should be `0.05` for a five star, so it doesn't look exactly right to me.

EDIT: After more searching, it looks like these are community guesses at numbers, Blizzard has not published official drop rates.

Hi, I’m the guy behind this code. First we roll the type of the gem: 1-star, 2-star or a ?/5-star and then if the rolled gem is ?/5-star, we determine the amount of stars that it will have using the probability array at the bottom of the code snippet, that you attached.

The drop rates are published in-game.

Can you acquire 5-star gems by other means?

You can get Legendary Crests by other means for free...at maybe 1 or 2 a month.

The Rare Crests you get more easily and have a chance to drop a Legendary Gem, but never a 5-star gem.

It's worse than that. The free legendary crests are not the same as the paid ones and the gems you get from them are soulbound and can't be traded. Even some of the paid crests from the bundles are this lesser tier of legendary crest[1].

[1] https://reddit.com/r/DiabloImmortal/comments/v9v96i/til_ther...

1 free Legendary Crest, you need 10 for a run, then you need 50 runs for a 5 star, then it needs to be the gem that's perfect for your class since you can't trade it.

In theory? On an infinite timeline? Probably. Has it been done, and will it be done? Probably not.

I meant by other ways other than playing elder rift. Not about the odds.

Chargebacks incoming lol!

Just cost me $10,400 :)