While we're on the topic, I'm just going to say that those "anonymous" job postings here on YC drive me nuts
"YCW11 company hiring front end dev! New office space! We <3 Django! Fridge stocked w/beer! "
There are a only couple YC companies I wouldn't want to work for, period. Mainly from the recent crop, but those bad seeds kinda ruin the whole "work for a random anonymous YC company!" recruitment tool.
The only occasion I've ever found justified for hiding the company name is when you're hiring in a town where the unemployment rate is > 25% and you can't manage the unemployment mob that inevitably forms outside the store.
There is only one reason those anonymous job postings exist - lazy hiring managers. I really wish pg would put his foot down and tell people to start standing up for their brand rather than hiding from it.
I don't think that's true. AFAIK, the anonymous listings are usually companies that haven't publicly launched yet and don't want to burn through their TechCrunch coverage early. It's PR, not HR. I do agree, though, that they're kind of annoying to read and I have trouble imagining what kind of desperate souls apply to these employment-roulette positions.
It's not the anonymity that is bothersome, they're just horribly written job posts. And worse still: comments are disabled so we can't ask any further questions.
If an organization expects me to send a detailed resume to them without knowing the first thing about them, that starts the entire relationship off in a profoundly asymmetrical way.
People will have a different opinion of you based on the order in which you tell them facts about yourself. Dan Ariely did some good research into this phenomenon on online dating sites.
If a company tells you "we have great pay!...but we sell cigarettes" you're going to have a better response than if the company tells you "we sell cigarettes...but hey, great pay!" That's life. Companies hide negative facts about themselves behind these sorts of ordering tricks because, well, they work.
Now, YC companies seem the least likely to have anything to hide about themselves. That said, when I see an ad like this, my first reaction is to shy away - because even if they do have some legit reason for staying stealth (competitiveness, hiding YC funding, etc), they could also be doing this just to hide some fact that I might find negative later in the interview process. I've been burned one too many times by non-YC companies doing this to me, that I'm concerned to see YC companies doing it too.
The onus should be on the hiring company to tell about themselves because they're the ones who want something. If I'm looking for a job, I can either look at the 99% of job listings (both startup and more mainstream) that will tell me exactly what I'll be working on and who I'll be working with or I can ask someone who's already been vague for clarification to decide whether I even want to apply. The incentive just isn't there for the job-seeker.
What you're suggesting is that it's perfectly reasonable for someone to post a help-wanted ad in the classifieds saying "I need help! Call me to find out what with!" and to expect people to call you instead of the ads all around yours.
Because the market for skilled software folk is very much tilted in favor of employees right now. Demand far outstrips supply. Why would a prospective (and presumably talented/in-demand) employee jump through your hoops?
When the inevitable crash comes and the supply of tech jobs tanks through the floor... then we will put up with these crappy HR shenanigans.
It's kind of like online dating. You could email a potential candidate and ask for a photo, but it's really not worth it since everyone else posts a photo. You just naturally assume that posting a generic description without a photo means they have something to hide.
Just recently, I took a couple of steps to enhance my job searching. First was to post my CV/resume to jobs like monster.com; the second was a very old skool writing-a-letter-on-goddamn-paper-and-mailing-it-out-to-would-be-employers. The first has produced nothing but clueless phone-calls from agents. The second landed me a job with >90% certainty; I have a second interview next week. I am very well-qualified for the companies I wrote to, and I made sure I selected them very carefully (partly because postage costs actual money). This is relevant to the article since I'm not really applying for a job -- the company who want to hire me basically made a position for me.
Anyway, I'm starting to think that current online job searching is profoundly broken. It just seems to lead back to the clueless employment agents who know nothing about IT. Not much different from 20 years ago, it's just they have access to bigger databases and no incentive not to email scatter-gun fashion since there is no cost involved. I have no idea if there is a solution to this, but at least my retro approach eliminated two sets of middle-men: the jobs boards and the agents. It also put me very much in control which was an excellent feeling.
Key to my application is I can write a good letter and CV/resumé, whereas most people can't. They also don't know how to research their industry: finding the right companies, working out who to address the letter to, how to followup a few months later (or by phone a week later) without sounding pushy.
So, your idea has "legs" :) Somewhere between a virtual personal assistant, a resumé-writing and mailing service, and a campaign planner for job seekers. I want royalties ;)
Quite contrary -- there are a lot of people who are able to handwrite really nicely, especially among women. Since it's so commonplace and it does not require any training (since everybody got one in primary education), you can pay really low wage for such services.
It can work out for you, but I don't see how it applies to just anyone. Going to the events takes time, social skills and money (if the events are far).
And, what if you move to another country or switch to a different industry? You still need recruiters in that case, so the Monster isn't releasing it's grip anytime soon.
If you're an experienced software developer with skills in some of the following technologies: PHP/C++/Python/Rails/Django/ASP.NET/SQL/JavaScript/etc and you live in a dynamic market like SF/CHI/PHY/NYC/RDU/etc, then it's enough to simply create a profile on one of the career sites. The recruiters will be after you shortly.
Getting a job via a job board and recruiter won't be all warm and fuzzy like meeting an employeer at a conference. It will be more like buying a used car, but you still don't have to apply in this market.
There are so many reasons why a company might not be good at recruiting employees. They run from not having enough time, to opening an office in a new city, or simply being willing to outsource networking so they can do stuff they like.
If you're looking for a job as a place to make friends and work with interesting people, fine, that's good stuff. But, many places of work are simply businesses, trying to make money for their owners. Recruiters want to find competent and experienced workers who can come in and get stuff done. It's not all lowballing and keyword bingo.
That may be true, but it's obvious that recruiting has a problem if it's so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in their own ranks. It's the same problem with realty and real estate agents.
In our case our company is in an industry (biotech) that traditionally doesn't seem to attract a lot of developers. Most of the developers I know in my network are either game or web app developers.
When we have openings they're usually reluctant to apply because the positions normally benefit from a solid math or sciences background, or they'd rather be working on more general-purpose software than that used for drug R&D.
That's mostly why we use job posting sites and we've actually managed to find solid team members via StackOverflow and some local job posting sites.
It is interesting advice. I think the usefulness of job sourcing based off of your personal network may have it's limitations however. Especially for those career stage or geographically challenged individuals.
Personally I tend to only passively job-hunt by keeping my CV and skillset up to date. I don't think this approach has done too poorly for me, although possibly i'd be more excited to head into work for google or facebook every day.
Letting other people do the work of identifying the positions that need or benefit from your specific set of skills has its benefits and I tend to get a steady stream of contacts from the corporations I find worth while/interesting.
Now if I was dead set on gaining entry into a high quality, high-stakes start-up, I could definietly see the benefits of leveraging my network to find the best possible matches.
Every job that I have found has always been through warm relationships that I have had with my peers.
My first job (sweatshop consultant doing mostly COBOL) was acquired through the college placement office. My next job (a year later) was through a recruiter who found the first employer a reliable field for harvest. That second job worked out pretty well, I was there for seven years. The technology was not very interesting but it was as very good fit for me as I was getting marriage and family life underway.
After that, everything has been by referral or word of mouth from friends/colleagues. None of those have been duds.
I agree with the idea in general. However, there are many cases where companies would (and should) hire people from outside their direct network. One is if the company is growing too fast (People in the direct network may be very busy & happy with their current jobs, making it harder to find enough of them). The other is if the company is looking to get diverse experiences and opinions. Imagine a social networking company formed by some employees of Facebook -- they would be better off by hiring someone from MySpace or Friendster who saw how difficult it was to compete with Facebook, and who tried to find niches to be able to co-exist with Facebook.
Similarly, for an employee, there are benefits of going out of their own network to get a job -- You get to work in a completely different setting (which may be a better learning experience for you), and you get to build a completely new network.
Last couple times I've gone through an interview process, I've been more than a little peeved because they didn't do any research on me beyond reading my resume. I'm the webspace - we're talking about a web-oriented job - Google me for goodness' sake!
Asking surface level questions that could be Googled in 2 seconds borders on insulting. They certainly will judge me by how much I know about their company, and how enthusiastic I am about the company. That needs to run both ways.
My wife just says I was looking for an ego-stroke. Well... why wouldn't I? I've worked hard for years both on building up my skills, but also trying to build up a reputation. To gloss over that and not do any research beforehand on someone you're planning on giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to over multiple years is just lazy.
These were people that called me, not the other way around.
The job/labor/work market is broken, and I don't know if there's a way to 'fix' it in the short term. It will evolve in to something more workable, but I don't see that happening too quickly.
Did you not have your previous work clearly listed on your resume? Why would you expect, say, an engineer who just got FW your resume an hour before the interview to go google you and stalk your twitter feed?
If I'm interviewing someone, I will go research them beforehand. I've been handed resumes, and gone and done a google search. If there's no blog, no sourceforge/github, no homepage, no mailing list chatter, I've had that weigh in my decision.
Previous work is listed on the resume.
I didn't suggest stalking a twitter feed, but googling for me would indicate I do have a twitter account. And a blog. And a github account. And a podcast. And that I run a local user group.
To then be asked "so, what's your involvement with the tech community?". Or "what sort of tech work do you engage in outside of office hours?". That's just lazy. There are 2 people on the planet with my name. This isn't a case of "John Smith"-itis.
I also hate the calls from recruiters (I don't often take) that start with "I found your resume...." and end with "... send me your resume". Umm... you have it. YOU FOUND IT ONLINE. THAT'S IT. Sure.... they may have found one from 8 years ago - I get it. I tell them - "it's updated on my website and in multiple formats". If they can't be bothered to go to my website to download it, we're off to a bad start and this relationship isn't going to work.
If that's a criteria for you when looking for an employer, then that's your choice, but I personally would never expect such a thing.
The last time I had to interview (being an engineer), I was sent 7 resumes on a Monday for interviews being conducted on a Wednesday. I checked out any links they put on their resume, apps in the appstore, etc. If they did not feel they could be bothered to tell me about something, then it will remain a mystery to me.
It wasn't clear from your original post that your links were in your CV / resume. Should be a lesson to those who want to showcase their "side" projects, LinkedIn profile (heavily checked now days), to put these ON your resume. I consistently fidn in screening Software, Web Dev's and designers asking them if they have an online profile, github, LinkedIn that the answer is yes, but is absent from the resume.
Why would you expect a hopeful employer to wait until interview day to forward the resume out to the interview team? Sales teams put more effort into their pitches.
Sites like Monster are going the way of the yellow pages. And just like you could replace the yellow pages with asking neighbors who they recommend, there is a balance between finding good sources (using Google to find a plumber, using Indeed/LinkUp* to find jobs) and understanding the value of networking.
There is a reason CareerBuilder drops millions on a SuperBowl ad each year and Monster spent over $1.2M at an employer party in Las Vegas this last weekend. If all jobseekers knew what Nick discovered, there'd be no reason for these websites to exist!
Yes, I work at LinkUp - but since anyone would include it I figured I'd be forgiven for including it
LinkUp.com only indexes jobs found on company websites - we go way out of our way to make sure our spiders never include jobs from job boards or staffing companies. We do this to make sure that all the jobs on our site are still open, that their aren't any duplicates, and that there aren't any scams on it.
It sounded easy to us when we started too, but being accurately able to directly link to a company's job is a far trickier business than it should be - not to mention being able to tell the job's title from its location from its description. If you'd like a sample, figure out how to parse CDW's career section - https://cdw.taleo.net/careersection/10200/jobsearch.ftl - which is actually one of the easier ones:)
I emailed you the details so I'm not taking this thread OT (and so I don't look like I'm spamming HN.) If anyone else has this question, eric at linkup dot com is a good way to reach me.
I'd like to make this resolution as well. No more sending a resume to people who don't know me, no more technical screening because they have no idea how I code, no more "getting to know you" lunches because, well, they don't know me.
It takes quite a bit of effort, so I might not manage to pull this off. Applying for jobs and posting positions on job boards are different sides of the same lazy coin. It takes a lot of talent and effort to become a developer with such an excellent network and reputation that you can generate employment opportunities with a phone call. This is true on the other side as well - many companies just don't have the talent and/or aren't willing to put in the time to get to know who the good developers are. Both sides have to be deeply engaged in the community.
There's a practical issue here, of course - there just may be opportunities that you want to pursue, and a resume, phone screen, technical grilling, and so forth may be the best way to go. And some companies have to staff up so quickly that they just feel like the have to cast a wider net. But both cases do raise certain warning flags... if you're a developer, why aren't you generating offers that interest you from within your own network? If you're an employer, why are you expanding so rapidly that you're unable to recruit from a reliable network?
In the best case scenario, almost all of the above is unnecessary because you've already worked together, so there's no need to take estimates and make guesses about what kind of employer/employee a new prospect would be.
I wish you luck, but also I hope that good employers don't closure on the people which they know already, simply because it would mean I cannot come to your place and find a good job straight away, like I always did when I moved across my country first and then into a foreign country.
I don't think they would. Recruiting from networks is a good thing to strive for, but it would become a bad practice without room for exceptions. Even 37Signals, a big proponent of knowing the people you hire before you hire them, does put out the occasional job posting/recruitment ad on its blog.
I kind realized that a while ago, but it is difficult for nerd like me to leave computer and go meet people... what's to talk about? "I just found this snippet it's kinda fun!" ? :(
Go out and talk with other nerds. The easiest way to network in our industry is to open Meetup.com and look for JavaScript, C++, whatever events to discuss technology with like-minded nerds. And where there are nerds, there are nerds that work for other companies that might be interested in hiring more nerds.
Difficulty meeting people is a major impediment to hiring anyone who will be part of a team. I don't know any jobs that don't require teamwork and human interaction.
You've gotten over many difficult things in life. This difficulty may require different skills to overcome, but you're probably capable of it. You'll probably find it rewarding.
In my experience, working as part of a team requires different social skills than marketing oneself and networking; I'm decent at the former and hopeless at the latter. Employers who only consider social butterflies will be potentially missing out on lots of talented candidates.
Then it might be time to explore some other hobbies. There are non-computer related things do that don't require you to be in shape and that includes actually getting in shape! Fly an RC helicopter, start hiking, volunteer at the soup kitchen. No one is going to care about some snippet of code but that's your fault for being so 1-dimensional
If all you have for work and pleasure involves sitting at a computer then you are cutting out a large part of being alive. Plus you are risking your health. You typecast yourself as a nerd but that does not mean you must handcuff yourself to a computer desk.
I'm going to suggest indoor* wall climbing as a hobby. Lots of nerds like it because its actually very analytic. Doing a particular climb often requires analyzing where the hand/foot holds are and figuring out the best way to use them. If you've ever done any work in AI, you run into problems where you its hard to tell if you have a bug in your code or if your learning algorithm isn't very good. Its the same with climbing: is my method bad or am I just doing it wrong?
Edit: one other benefit, if you find a wall you can just go during its open hours and meet people after you get there. In my experience, people will see you struggle with something and swing by to give you a quick tip ("try putting your feet a bit higher", "try using your left hand over here", etc...)
*Indoor because its less intimidating and the walls often have custom made climbs for various skill levels.
Every job I've had, I got through personal connections.
I did event videography up until last fall (went away to college), every gig I got was because I knew person planning it (theatre: I knew the director, weddings: I knew the wedding planner)
I had a day job working at subway last summer. I got the job by going to the manager (whom I've known for many years) and asking for the job.
My current internship is at the same company my father works at. I went to the CTO and asked for an internship. It probably helped that my dad works there.
I've also applied for several jobs. Every job I applied for at my college I was turned down for, every other internship I applied for told me "lol, freshman".
This is very strange advice. I've never gotten a job from an acquaintance and am never likely to. There's a much bigger pool of jobs from people you don't know and a much better chance of a good match being made somewhere in that pool. The numbers are obviously in your favor despite the fact that people you've worked with know you're good. Its unlikely that you and people you know just happen to want to do the exact same thing at the exact same time with everyone else looking to recruit you.
I'd also feel really weird getting a job via acquaintance. Its like a kind of nepotism I don't want or need.
Interesting - I haven't applied for a job in 3.5 years (because I own my own company) but at the same time, if I were to apply for a job...I wouldn't.
There's no real point. Don't bother trying to just do the same damn thing everyone else has done. Recruiters and hiring managers get 1k+ resumes a day.
Do something crazy, something nuts. Stand out from the crowd. The last thing you want to do is blend in because you just turn into another sheet of paper in the pile, even if you are near the top!
I'm going to put forth an example here: my cousin just graduated from high school in Grant's Pass Oregon. Small school, small town.
He's going to Oxford.
OXFORD.
Good for him! And he asked me what he should do for a graduation speech. I said "do something they'll never forget - make them remember you in your town forever"
His graduation speech was a two-parter with his best friend. The first part was an adaptation of "who's on first" and the second part was Dr. Seuss.
They'll never forget him, and they are sad he is leaving.
Do the same thing when applying for a job. You won't regret it.
(unless it isn't your style - it might be weird then and as my wife said just now, "context is king")
Yes, this is an old concept called "networking". Unfortunately not everyone's very good at it, and unfortunately not being good at networking doesn't mean you wouldn't be good at the job in question. But that's life... social connections are indeed an important factor in all walks of life, and not something you learn in any classroom. It's a hard lesson for some of us.
The trouble with this strategy is that it's really just cronyism - employing your friends and relations - rather than trying to do a less heavily biased search for the best candidate. Resumes/CVs, imperfect though they are, at least represent a sort of level playing field, whereas employing your friends via opaque methods is blatantly cronyistic.
Not necessarily. My company is often hiring and I have friends who potentially need jobs, however unless I don't think they would be a good (or great) fit, I probably wouldn't mention it to them.
In that case the thing you need to ask yourself is whether you're employing the person because they're the best from a range of possible candidates, or whether you're employing them merely because they're your friend.
sounds like a good strategy, at every job I've worked the first question following a statement of "We need more people" was "Does anybody know somebody who would fit in here ?"
Every time I say "I know the perfect person", my bosses say, "No, we need to 'put the feelers out' and compare. There's no way to know if your guy is perfect without interviewing to see who's out there."
It's silly. They need to feel useful. This reminds me of some previous employers who always breathed down my neck to lay off our current developers and find newer faster developers.
Sometimes you should go for what you have, especially if its highly competent, is vouched for by a valued employee and meets your requirements.
Psychologically difficult (is their a term here?) for singular decisions to be made outside of chaff to discard. Not just in hiring, but, particularly in hiring :)
Personally I've never applied for a job (I'm 32 now) and in our company the very first thing we do is ask around for personal recommendations when hiring new staff. Advertising the job is the last resort and usually gives the worst results.
I completely agree with the article. Not a week goes by where I don't see this reinforced further. Just had lunch today with a guy I met through a meetup, and it might lead to paying work of some kind if I wanted it. A lot of the stereotypical application process and resume paradigm is all about filtering out and sorting random strangers who ping you across the transom. And it's only a proxy for the thing you want, not the thing you want directly. By going around that, by avoiding it, you avoid a lot of the pain and inefficiency that's experienced on both sides of the table. Go meet people directly. Show them what you're like. Smile. Laugh. Be kind. Don't smell bad. Be efficient. Do good work. Put examples of your stuff out there. Be findable. Be ambient. Increase your "surface area" and more opportunities will come to you. And if you're prepared when those opportunities present themselves, and you recognize them, you suddenly experience "luck" (where luck = preparation + opportunity.)
"YCW11 company hiring front end dev! New office space! We <3 Django! Fridge stocked w/beer! "
There are a only couple YC companies I wouldn't want to work for, period. Mainly from the recent crop, but those bad seeds kinda ruin the whole "work for a random anonymous YC company!" recruitment tool.