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Thinking About Starting a Business? Try a Sales Job (wsj.com)
26 points by utnick on Aug 7, 2008 | hide | past | favorite | 28 comments


This almost sounded like an interesting article until the phrase "Cutco Cutlery" appeared. Those guys are only slightly less cult-like than Amway.

My ex tried working for them, years ago. Not a fun experience. Cost her money in the end -- the best salespeople at Cutco are the hiring managers, who begin by selling their prospective employees an expensive demo kit. Beware, beware, beware.

And, in case you don't know, I should mention that even high-quality expensive cooking knives are a big ripoff. The first words out of every pro chef's mouth are "go to a restaurant supply store and buy a basic steel chef's knife, with sterilizable plastic handle and a brand like 'Global', for about $19. That's what all the pros use, and they chop more than you'll ever chop."


Interesting advice on the knives.

But perhaps a chef's needs are different from an ordinary person's, in that a chef has a lackey to sharpen his knives every night? For those of us who are too lazy to sharpen our knives regularly, perhaps a $100 knife is worthwhile?


There's that and the fact that while you do hear this advice a lot, chef's (at least ones that actually cook) and busy line cooks typically walk into work with a knife case. It isn't filled with $20 knives. If you're using a tool for many hours a day, it pays to have a really nice tool. Even if it's only marginally nicer, that margin adds up. (It may never add up for the home cook, but that's another debate.)

But if you're making an order to fill out your kitchen, it's no surprise the cheap but fully functional knives will be ordered. $20 * 10 is a lot easier to justify than $100 * 10.


Okay, folks, you drove me to the books -- or rather to the Cooks Illustrated website, which no self respecting geek who cooks should fail to subscribe to. They ran lots of knives through tests and recommended the Forschner Victorinox Fibrox Chef's Knife, which cost $25.33 in 2005.

So, I lied. You might not want to use a $20 knife. You shouldn't spend a penny less than $26. ;)

Note that this is a brand-name product. Wouldn't be surprised to see the no-brand version at a supply store for $19.

Note also that knives are a personal thing. If the cheap one doesn't fit your hand you'll want a more expensive one. C'est la vie.

It's true that keeping your knife sharp is really important. Unfortunately, you can dull an expensive knife as easily as a $25 knife. You should get a steel and try to figure out how to use it. You should get your knife sharpened when you sense it's getting dull, or you'll injure yourself. You should use the right cutting board. You should have a knife that's all your own and hide it from other people, lest they smash the edge into a solid metal object. You should watch Alton Brown's show about knives to learn these things.

Mr. Brown recommends pro sharpening because he thinks all the homegrown solutions suck by comparison. Cook's Illustrated, OTOH, recommends the $80 Chef's Choice 110 electric home sharpener, which you can afford with the money you saved on that $110 chef's knife.

Pro chefs carry more than one knife, in a case. You also need more than one, but not many more. In his book, Anthony Bourdain (famous pro chef) recommended a chef's knife, a flexible boning knife, a paring knife, and an offset serrated knife. Alton Brown (famous geek pro chef) also suggests kitchen shears and a 4 to 5 inch utility knife. Cook's Illustrated suggests that you might want a slicing knife if you carve a lot of roasts (alas, I don't; I married a vegetarian), or a cleaver if you often make homemade chicken stock (see above).

You'll also need some steak knives if you're not married to a vegetarian like I am. ;)


I'm not sure it's possible to put $100 worth of value into a knife. It would have to be rare isotopes of iron and carbon...no, I just don't see it. I mean, they're commodities. Paying $100 for a knife is like paying $30 for a gallon of gas. Why would you?

Think about it: a kilo of steel is roughly 75 cents. A pound of plastic is less than that. I'm not being exact (commodity prices are hard to find online), but they are both >> than $25, which seems to be the consensus on the best you can get for a knife. And from an industrial point of view, it's really not that hard to assemble a knife. I don't see where the money goes. Maybe the handle?

Besides, if you pay $100 for a knife, that means you are a) a squanderer, b) gullible, and c) someone who overestimates the returns of investing in cutlery. Wouldn't a boxcutter do? These traits are not entrepreneurial. I wouldn't fund you. Maybe I'm a little extreme (I have a really hard time paying an extra $.04 per can for significantly less unedible tuna) but I'm pretty sure $100 per knife is retarded.


Chefs don't have lackeys to sharpen their knives every night. $100 knives are vanity items. Working chefs all buy $20-$30 knives. Celebrity chefs have $200 knives because they get them for free.


The one piece I disagree with is that you should pick the knife that feels most comfortable to you, be it 19 or 99. My knife is a santoku that I bought for a little too much but as much as I use it, I can't complain one bit.


Actually, I agree with you. Fit is important. I just want to encourage people to look for the cheap fit before heading for the more expensive one.

Really, the most important lesson is that you only need one good chef's knife. If you take good enough care of it (i.e. avoid needing to sharpen it so often that it becomes a matchstick) it will last a lifetime. So, really, go for it. Blow the $99 if you've shopped around and found the most comfortable knife in the world. It's not much money when amortized over your entire life.

(Incidentally, the first irony here is that my own chef's knife was a gift, from someone who probably does not read Cook's Illustrated, so it's probably a $70 knife.

The second irony is that, after a few years, I've concluded that my knife really doesn't fit me very well. So I'm probably going to end up buying another knife or two in an attempt to find something better. I'll be starting in the $26 range!

Which brings me to my last piece of advice: Don't give knives as gifts. Give gift certificates to stores that sell knives.)


Actually, my daily knife is a Santoku-style German knife whose compromises I like better for much of what I do. It was amazing how much better at knife work I got (and how much more confidence I had cooking!) when I was liberated from my constantly dull knives. :)


Oh, damn, it's too late to edit my post. I think I misremembered "Global" as a line of cheaper knives... they're a good brand, but I'm not sure they're cheap, so they're not the ones I was thinking of.


If one wanted to do sales, I'd recommend using Cisco's Engineering Sales program. It's a little more... sophisticated than selling knives and tupperware.


This is great advice.

I have a blog post I've been meaning to write called "What do you REALLY want to do for a living, aspiring entrepreneur?" inspired by a comment reply here where someone effectively said, "I'm not really that into growing a company, I just want to do a startup 'cause I love to build things and hate stupid managers". If your startup is successful, you generally grow (at least a bit). Before long, your job is hiring, BEING the stupid manager everyone gripes about, customer service, working with vendors and service providers, and doing sales/bizdev.


As a whole it is not great advice. It has two parts: the good one is "Thinking About Starting a Business? Try a Sales Job" and the evil one is an advertising of Cutco Cutlery and similar businesses.

"Sales reps may have to buy their own demonstration equipment." It is a signature of a pyramid scheme. Encouraging young adults to participate in such scheme is evil.


The advice I'm referring to is that in the headline. At no point in the article did it say, "you really ought to work for CutCo"... It was just an example.

I don't know a damn thing about CutCo, but having people buy their own equipment isn't just the signature of a pyramid scheme... It's the signature of franchising as well. Hrm. Is McDonalds a pyramid scheme?

Either way, high commission "eat what you kill and pay your own expenses" aren't inherently evil.


You're right. I haven't completely settled on this yet, but I may want to take just the founder->CTO route, rather than founder->CEO. A CTO would have to deal with a lot less in sales/customer-service/etc. (I find a small dose of these fun, but couldn't tolerate them as >50% of my job.)

The extreme example of this is Steve Wozniak I think, who didn't even want to be top technical guy in his company; he just wanted to be an engineer.


A CTO would have to deal with a lot less in sales/customer-service/etc.

Not really. In fact in many cases it's the opposite.

CTO's of highly technical startups are sometimes the company's best salesman, since no one understands the technology better than them, and they are out evangelizing their product, meeting a lot of prospects.

There are quite a few companies where CTO's are glorified sales reps, but this typically happens in larger companies and not startups.


If it's evangelizing to other hackers/engineers, that would still be fun.


Hackers/engineers come in various flavors, some are super smart &fun, some are clueless, some suffer from NIH (not invented here), some would think its easy to build what you have, etc.

Ultimately, you have to evangelize to folks that will buy your product, that is the key :-)


This is fantastic advice.

When I moved to California in the jobless pit of the dot-com bubble burst, my first two jobs involved knocking on doors. The first was soliciting donations for the D.A.R.E. program for a Sydcor company called "Synergistic Marketing Concepts". The second was pushing Electrolux vacuums.

Nothing forces a geek to face their social ineptitude like knocking on a door and trying to convince an annoyed stranger that they should trust you enough to give you money. I was never very good at either job, but I managed to keep from starving. By getting from "terrible" to "barely competent", I learned some essential communication skills that have helped me greatly as a hacker.

Besides direct sales, another good training is to do technical support for a terrible company; the worse the product, the better the experience. If it's related to finances in some way so that your customers don't get paid if it doesn't work, so much the better. When you hear raw unadulterated panic in the voice of a customer, and the rage that this panic creates, and learn to convince them that you're going to make everything alright, it forces you to have a lot of compassion for users.


At my last startup, I spent about a year in sales. It was out of necessity: after having conceived, designed and built the new product it needed to be sold. And the stuff that made it really shine was different and subtle. Which meant the story kept having to change to figure out what mattered and resonated.

The time on the road w/ the sales team was invaluable. I learned more in that year then I had in the past five at the company: creating a story, telling it well, listening to the customer and their pain points, deciding how to approach a new client, working up a quote, determining the relative value of a customer and more.

It has paid off handsomely in my current work. And I have much more appreciation for how sales work and how sales guys think.


This is probably good advice.

But if you want to practice your sales skills, instead of getting involved in an existing door-to-door sales and/or multi-level-marketing racket, why not start your own door-to-door sales business? Pick a product, buy a trunkload of it, then try to sell it. You'll not only get the experience in sales, you'll get experience at choosing products that the consumer wants, and you'll get to keep all your profit (err, minus taxes) instead of a measly 10% commission.


I've known some very good consulting & software sales people who make > $250K a year. They started selling copiers in college. One guy raised money for a couple charities, door to door.


My insurance agent who is a top producer told me that the only way to learn sales is by doing it for at least 6 months. She said that initial half-year will suck (e.g. make sure you have 6 month living savings to support yourself) but the experience with rejection and learning the difference between productivity and activity is worth it. It really doesn't matter what you try to sell either.


Given that the article talked about knives, I'm surprised no one's mentioned Vector Marketing yet: http://www.collegeotr.com/suny_binghamton/vector_marketing_s.... They basically mass-mail high school students trying to recruit some to sell knives. A couple of my friends did it back in high school. While it can be a way to improve your sales ability, this particular scheme (and many others) was little more than a fancy scam.

I fully agree with the title, but these "independent reseller" schemes seem to be hit-or-miss at best. It might be a better experience to work in sales at a big company, rather than as an independent reseller. John Doerr plays up the fact that he worked in sales at Intel before his VC life. Or even better, sell something you made.


This might be somewhat naive, but isn't the whole conversation on HN centered around the idea that we should be trying to make stuff that doesn't have to be sold? Something that people simply want? Where does this article fit in? I've never seen a facebook commercial on TV, or a youtube commercial. Or a MetaFilter commercial...

With my startup, I often have people telling me I should invest in radio outreach, print up business cards etc and do more marketing. This advice is all well-intentioned, and some of it is very good (like having decent business cards), but we've been doing a radio thing (free mind, you) for the last 3 months and haven't seen any fruit at all from it. I dunno. I think my time's better spent making the product better.

Also, as a journalist, that's about the lamest, least informative blog post I've ever read on a newspaper site.


Nothing sells itself. Even if people "simply want" it, you still have to sell if you want to be the leader in your space (and in some spaces being the leader is the only position worth having).


I don't think it is good advice. Maybe sales skills are useful, but the thing is, there are zillions of things one could learn before starting a business that could be useful (like getting a degree, saving enough money, ...). It is just one more thing that delays you actually doing what you want, and that is bad. Why not just learn on the job (starting a business)?

However, if you absolutely think you have to put yourself through that ordeal of selling crap door-to-door, perhaps collecting money for charities would be a better choice than selling products of questionable quality.


cool. Lets all go work for sales company and then we will millionaires!




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