Really hope they reached him in time. This is no way or reason to go...
For all the interesting things the anglo countries offer, this is one of those things that concern me. Many people I know in the Netherlands and Spain were in the same situation. A very good friend of mine owes the bank E400k and has a house to sell at this moment. In Spain. The bank wanted to foreclose months ago but the judge blocked it giving her 2 years to get her affairs in order to start paying mortgage again (mortgage was not paid for over a year). It seems far more humane than what I read about anglo countries where you can end up living on the streets even without a drug habit. I know money money but as I get older I value humane far more than money. Then again, I am not sure if I think this way about uk/ca/us/au (esp US though) because of the many media hyped up posts. Maybe it is not that bad but reading things like this...
Edit: many foreclosures happen in Spain but that is mostly because people do not know that they can fight them or do not want the hassle
Edit2: post flagged? Is it fake? Does not matter for the responses here; actual people think about and do this every day. I had too many friends and family take their lives but none of them did it because of money. Broke here (correct me if I am wrong please!) is not the same as broke there.
Even if its a fake post, its brings up some useful points. What you see in places where money and what you have are everything is a loss of community. For me, when I've talked stupid about hurting myself when I was having a bad time I was fortunate coming into technology via punk rock and alternative culture to have genuine friends around to talk to. Often work won't allow for therapy, the moment a manager finds out you suffer from depression you're out hard and fast. There's a huge stigma attached to depression, but ultimately each human has a certain level of stress they can take before they break.
Thank you. It's such a horrible and powerless feeling knowing that there is very little I can do all the way here in Australia. I sent them a Facebook message, but I am glad someone was able to call.
Hoping with every fibre of my being that someone can get to the OP in time.
I've been close to this sort of situation before, with a six figure tax debt that I thought I could never pay out. Several incredibly tough years later, I have paid out that debt and am well ahead. I often look back at that dark patch in my life and am glad I never took the option that I thought was my only recourse while in that particular mindset.
Things can get better. The worst of times will pass. I wish I could talk to this guy and tell him my story face to face.
Whatever deity or cosmic force you believe in - hope/wish/pray that it delays this man's decision so that someone can save him.
This is sad yet completely understandable. I attempted suicide last night. After being blocked from being able to put my kids to bed by my soon-to-be-ex-maybe-but-hopefully-I-can-fix-it wife, looking at not having much in the way of visitation. It's just too much. Add financial pressure, the only thing my wife seems to respond to, and I can't take it. Writing software requires creativity from the inside - emotional stress disables me. Not fair, perhaps I'm weak, but there it is.
The cry for help stuff is annoying, too. I didn't contact anyone last night because either I cause more emotional harm (they don't stop me) or I'm just an drama-causing guy that is so unstable of course his kids can't be around him.
I used to think this was a silly response until I was in the situation. Maybe things would have gotten for this guy, maybe not.
I am glad that you are still here with us, and I would strongly urge you to get help, in whatever way. Friends and family are of course, the first ones I would suggest, but if you feel that you do not want to burden them, then please contact a help line, or a priest, or a counselling service - whatever. A lot of them let you stay anonymous.
In my experience, when you are in that state of mind that suicide seems the only/easiest option, then there is NO WAY that you are thinking of the best outcomes for other people in your life.
You not ever being there for your kids ever again is NOT a better option that you being there broken, but still there for them to be able to actually tell you how they feel and listen to you. Not even close.
You will be far too enmeshed in your own feelings of hopelessness and loss to be able to think clearly. You NEED someone who can look at the 'helicopter view' objectively and bring a new perspective to your mental state. Even a complete stranger who is empathetic can do that. They don't even need to say much - just listen to YOU saying it. The act of talking it out can help on a massive level.
My kids were very young when I went through my patch about 15 years ago. I look at them now and think about all the incredibly wonderful things I would have missed if I was not here.
Hang in there man! Last year I was in your situation, being at the receiving end of a divorce with 3 young kids. You are currently in the darkest place, I know. Sometimes everything looks black. Your ego sank through the bottom. But it will get lighter soon, don't give up hope. Although it might seem that there is no future, there certainly is, and it is brighter than anything you can imagine right now.
More people will help you than you think. Friends, family, colleagues. Try to find a friend that went through more or less the same situation, getting dumped by the one he/she loved.
You might be like me, having no access to healthcare to get counciling, I would recommend Alanon if you can't afford therapy, its free and sometimes sharing with other people is more healing than therapy with a "professional." I've been through many horrific things myself, you need to plug into a compassionate community of some kind, the isolation will kill you, you need people you can talk to in person, you need hugs and commiseration and compassion and some loving care from a genuine community.
Can you focus on one problem at a time? First, just go buy an ice cream. Take you kids in a car ride, to the playground - and eat ice cream. Listen to them laugh. Play with them. See you in them. Take time off work, go to that place in town that makes your heart smile. For me, it's the mtn bike track - what is it for you? GO see a movie, talk to someone in line. Ask them about their day. Have pancakes. Now call someone - anyone - and just say "can we have lunch"? Small, controllable wins are your way out. Your kids are your way out. The "mind-fuck" will go away.
> Months of incredible levels of stress, coupled with weeks of little sleep, yielded some deeply irrational, illogical thinking that I of course regret, but can’t erase from my timeline. And for any sort of intellectual exercise, like software development, no sleep+stress = a recursive loop of ineffectiveness that generates more stress and even less sleep.
> I apologize to those I distressed, from family to remote individuals who I’ve never met but who cared. This is my first opportunity to post anything on this, and the lack of communications wasn’t an intentional act of dramatic exercise.
This gives me knots in my stomach, I hope it's not too late to help this man and his family. I would contribute to a crowdfunding campaign, nobody should suffer like this. I don't have much either, but I could help with a little.
Someone in Canada here that can help out? The whois for the domain lists the following:
Name: Dennis Forbes
Postal address: 2273 Britannia Rd
Burlington ON L7P0E8 Canada
Phone: +1.9053158373
It's so hard to realize that our self-worth isn't in the things that we owe. I've struggled with it myself many times. How can I be so good at so many things and yet be an absolute moron when it comes to money?
It seems so simple. Just don't spend it.
It's like my Mom's voice calling out to us as I ran out the door in high school.
"Don't sin!"
She had long given up trying to lay out a long list of things we shouldn't do and distilled everything into the most essential kernal.
"Sure mom, I'll get right on that"
For a month I can be really, really good. And then there's a closeout on new Canon lenses at B&H and it's all over.
What an idiot.
Soon enough, it all adds up and like Dennis, you have a couple of medical bills or a job go south and the ship just sinks around you.
Nobody cares and there's nothing you can do.
But it's obvious to me after reading this thread that our community DOES CARE and will reach out desperately to help.
Our self worth is far greater than some crappy shack.
The lives we touch and the memories we make mean so much more than the possessions we have.
The pain I feel inside for Dennis is touched only by the willingness of this team to reach out and help him.
I called the Halton police department and was told that they could not investigate until I contacted my local (US) police department and had the US police send them the information. They refused to just give me an email address where I could send the blog post or accept any information over the phone. Absurd.
I've done so for an online acquaintance in Boise (not even in the same state as me) for a much vaguer report; his post didn't even say he was in danger. They sent a police officer out (about 10pm even) and called me back to confirm that he was unharmed and not alone.
With great certainty, I can say that most all police and first responders in the US and Canada have been trained on how to handle a suicide.
Whether or not they recall and follow through on their training, that is another story.
Please, if you think a friend or family member is on the verge of suicide, do seek the assistance of the police. They considered to be on the edge of suicide if the answer to the questions below are "yes".
1. Do you have thoughts about killing yourself?
2. Do you have a plan to kill yourself?
3. Do you have a means to kill yourself? (Purchasing a knife or gun for example)
If the answer to all three questions are in the affirmative (or even if it's one or two out of three), seek help. Do not leave them alone unless your safety is threatened. Call a suicide prevention line, call the local authorities, call a family member; do all three.
I am a nationally registered paramedic and EMT in the United States.
I have a reasonable understanding of the rules and training in both the US and in Canada (because I've worked with many Canadians).
While I haven't had the (mis)fortune of working in a rig full time due to my other work, I have spent quite a bit of time working as a medic in large cities (San Francisco), abroad in other countries (Cambodia and Vietnam), and in the ED.
This is a fairly basic subject for most first responders.
I want to add to my first post:
The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is:
1-800-273-8255
24/7, your call will be answered.
Also, if you head to their website, you can chat via text with them if you don't feel like talking:
Sorry to call it like I see it, but your comment is so wrong on every possible level.
There is nobody else to call when someone is telling the world they're going to commit suicide, where is your compassion? I don't even know this guy, never read his blog and I live in another country, but reading that post and the "love" one he posted with photos of his children, that hits me right in the chest. I feel compelled to try and do something.
Police aren't just there for tending to crimes, they are there to serve and protect the community and in this case, protect someone in the community from themselves who is clearly suffering from immense mental stress and needs help.
The way society deals with people who clearly are suffering from mental illness needs to change. There are so many people out there just like him working in tech and non-tech alike feeling the same, sadly many don't get heard or the help they need. Remember Aaron Swartz?
It's easy for people to say, "he should tell someone, he should tell his wife" when they've never experienced mental illness before. It's easy to be uncompassionate when you're lucky to be a normal functioning human being.
Questioning a persons compassion because they hold a different opinion than you is low. There's no reason to believe they don't care. Their post doesn't say "Don't call the police, it's not worth the taxpayers dollar."
There are many stories, I don't know how representative they are (certainly it's rare), of police shooting or otherwise assaulting mentally ill people they were called to help. I'm not agreeing with the GP, but I wouldn't jump to any conclusions either way.
While I understand your concern. You're wrong on a number of fronts.
Firstly, as others have mentioned, you don't really have better options besides (perhaps?) trying to find/call relatives. If you call EMTs they won't report without police (for good reason), if you call a local hospital (of any kind) they will just tell you to call the police.
Thirdly, this is Canada. While I'm sure the level of CIT training penetration in the USA is not ideal, I would imagine that Canadian police are far better and will show up with Canadian bacon and maple syrup and some tim hortons coffee and make it all better.
> If you call EMTs they won't report without police (for good reason), if you call a local hospital (of any kind) they will just tell you to call the police.
EDIT 2016-01-24: Hello readers. This page is seeing dozens of uniques per day from non-bots. Whether it’s interested parties or just people casually entertained I don’t know, but I will say that if you’re thinking about this contact me now (dforbes@yafla.com). My window of options is incredibly tiny at this point.
I saw the Adieu post at the top of my feed yesterday. I had an empty body. I assumed it was a mispost or he had found an investor or like many of us just got tired of blogging.
Then tonight I read the Love post and thought it was rather touching until I got to this one. Then it fell into place.
I've followed his blog for years but otherwise don't know him personally. I'm sick to my stomach.
I hope he has not followed through. He may feel like a failure, but he is much more valuable alive to his family. His kids will be devastated. You can survive anything with your family there, but without a dad those kids are going to be far, far worse off than any financial damage you feel like you've caused.
This is obviously a very sad and tragic story – no warm-blooded person could dispute that.
But it's a private matter to be dealt with by police and his loved ones.
No doubt people are generally well-intentioned in thinking that having this case discussed here may be beneficial, but for other people the interest is likely to be voyeuristic, and for it to be a topic of public discussion is insensitive and risks causing further distress to his family.
I think it was beneficial, if it helped or not. I think it shows many of the 'money first' people on here what it can do to you and how you can make bad (as in ultimately, life threateningly bad) decisions with startups and investments. I think it does belong here.
Seconded. Suicide and depression is all too often swept under the carpet as being too hard to deal with, or some sort of taboo, even in these enlightened times.
We hear too much of the "overnight success zillionaires who came out of nowhere with a killer web app" or the couple of 14 year old kids who coded a mobile game in their spare time and now make $50K per day on the app stores.
But what we don't hear for every one of those is the thousands who slog away, burn through their life savings, run out of mortgage options and feel the frustration of building something with zero customers - just like Dennis did in the lead up to this terrible event.
When all you hear is the good stuff, and you are struggling, then it can seem like the problem is entirely YOU, and the abject feelings of failure are strong indeed.
But speaking to others who are running the same grind, you suddenly realise that you are NOT alone, and you are NOT doing everything wrong. There still may be no easy solution, but the problems shared are indeed problems halved.
Ask me how I know? I've been there and back several times. It is not nice.
I would hope that HN starts a trend for open honesty in this industry.
Honesty is great, but let's be honest about our own experiences, not someone else's tragedy that we randomly encountered on the internet and are in no position to make claims about. Otherwise we reduce that person to raw material for an argument. That's not right.
I understand the shock of encountering something like this, and how it can spur us to reflect more deeply on our own situation. Those are natural and good reactions. But we need to be careful about going any further, and large internet communities aren't capable of being careful that way.
Well explained. I understand, and rescind my plea in my former post. I had lost sight of the fact that we would be dragging someone into this discussion who is no longer here to give his consent or defend his decision.
> I think it shows many of the 'money first' people on here
That interpretive spin illustrates why we shouldn't have such discussions here. Treating someone's suicide as grist for internet arguments just can't lead anywhere good.
Throwaway because of obvious reasons but let this be a lesson to the HN crowd:
NEVER ever risk so much that you're family will be left homeless. The minute you had kids and a wife is the minute you chose to never be able to risk everything for bigger gains.
Also, this post sobered me up from the dream of buying a $500K home. I'll be getting a $250k and paying off that sucker ASAP.
I wouldn't have made a throwaway for this. It's perfectly reasonable advice. I never liked banks. My mom always warned me they're legal loan sharks who don't break your leg but take your home (or car, or whatever). Perhaps it's a good time to consider bitcoin.
That is terrible. He should have told his wife about his problems so she could help him get professional help. He also could have done a crowdfunding campain.
This is why our IT industry needs to make better support for the mentally ill, rather than vilify us and cause people to hide their mental illnesses.
> He should have told his wife about his problems so she could help him get professional help. He also could have done a crowdfunding campain.
We don't know what his relationship with his wife is, or what his capacity is to ask for help or to organize and execute a crowdfunding campaign(!).
A very unfortunate irony of mental illness is that it interferes with the person's emotional and cognitive ability to solve their problems. It's like telling someone with a broken leg that they 'should' run and get help. But at least with a broken leg you have the capacity and will to figure out what you want to do and to try to do it.
> We don't know what his relationship with his wife is
Especially in the last few days, if he was arranging for a sale of the house, that would necessitate a move. Certainly wouldn't be unheard of to spring this last minute, but I suspect he'd prepped the family for a move, and likely would have needed his wife's signatures on some paperwork at minimum (canada may be different than the US states I've lived in).
This guy doesn't seem unusually mentally ill to me. He seems well within the bounds of normal. Depression happens to everybody. (I'm not sure if we actually disagree or I'm just choosing different words.)
I had your view - I just read a number of his posts. You can define 'mental illness' to be almost anything, and it would encompass a lot of folks, but most of his writings were pretty balanced.
What I did see (and others did too) was a post about need $600k - needing a lump sum, then working on something and paying it all back from the 'riches' of the project. Now.. the 'riches' part may have been somewhat tongue in cheek, perhaps, but he was really going for some "go big go home" sort of project, and that didn't work out.
Now's probably not quite the time to criticize (and I'm not criticizing him), but when is there a good time? Dennis seemed to get caught up in the belief in "big payout tech projects". This isn't to say they don't happen, but Dennis' isn't the first story I've read of people "shooting big", then ending up in deep debt, deep despair, considering suicide. We don't read about these much - we generally read about the continuing waves of billion-dollar unicorns fronted by people continually younger than ourselves. It's gotta wear some people down.
I just bumped in to some folks a few days ago who are (independently) "buckling down" on their big "game changing" projects. While I only know these folks socially, if the projects fail, and one ends up taking his life (or even considering it), I will not be overly surprised (saddened, yes). But there's little I can do.
People chasing web/tech/app riches then falling in to debt/despair has got to be the unspoken plague of this industry.
EDIT: looks like his most recent project was Gallus: https://dennisforbes.ca/index.php/2017/01/24/gallus-lessons-... And while that looked like it was going to pay off in a sale, the buyer got acquired and everything got put on hold. The house eviction may have pushed him over the edge?
I do believe this focus on billions of $ is extremely weird. You can live a very very nice life on a few million $. And that in itself is a weird and skewed statement of what people consider nice. There are 1000s of places all over the world with fantastic living conditions in climate, health, healthcare, pensions etc you can grow old with a few 100k. The unicorn or bust idea is very strange as the chances you will make that are very close to 0; putting everything in it instead of building a solid business and 'we will see what happens' is rather alien to me. Having a long term profitable company is far far easier than a multi million or billion payout. People who need fast cars and million$ mansions should know what risk they are taking and explain that to their family when taking them.
FWIW, many of the folks I know that are shooting for the 'big payout' aren't really chasing after the fast cars and material side of things - it's simply what the definition of 'success' has been in the tech world for a long time. TechCrunch (and that ilk) is a sort of porn, and I've known some folks become addicted to that narrative. Some of the stories on HN probably feed in to that as well. If/when you're down, seeing so much seemingly easy success (and, let's be fair, some of it really was easy - there are people we read about who didn't slave away for 10 years to become an 'overnight sensation') is difficult to deal with. I don't think Dennis in particular was necessarily after the fast cars and million $ mansion (actually, he had a million dollar house already, on mortgage).
Thanks for posting that. One illuminating thing about this post, from yesterday(!) is that he is making plans for the future .... "Nonetheless, the experience was illuminating, so I’m taking a moment to document my observations for future me to search up later-"
