One thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of magnitude more.
This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudis to expand the masjid, build camps at Mina, allow hotels to be constructed, modernize the facilities, etc. that every person is able to actually perform the rites of hajj at the proper times. Hajj consists of a number of rites that have to be performed in certain places at certain times on certain days. Think about what it takes to organize millions of people trying to do this. It's very different than organizing thousands, or tens of thousands. You have to accommodate all their sleeping arrangements. You have to provide enough space for marketplaces so they can get something to eat. You have to widen the roads, air condition the facilities, make sure each group leaves at their own time, etc.
It's true that the Saudis aren't perfect, and they make mistakes, but my point is that it's easy to get the impression from the massive construction projects that they are just trying to make another Dubai or Olympics. But really, there is a spiritual purpose behind it, not connected to money, and there is also a lot going on behind the scenes that you can't see in the pictures. It would be easier for the Saudis to just restrict the visas to a tiny fraction and not go through with all of the construction and organizing, but they are making the effort as you can see. I know this is not going to be a popular comment here but I'm just trying to offset all the negative comments with some positive.
Kaaba has always been about trade/commerce/money, since well before Muhammad and Islam.
It is not a coincidence that Muhammad's tribe had the control of Kaaba where pagan pilgrims came before Islam to revere their many gods (whose representations (statues, icons, figures, etc.) were placed around Kaaba). And, very conveniently, it remained to be a holy place in Islam where each and every Muslim who can afford it must visit at least once during their lifetime.
The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son, who were Muslims (i.e. Submitters). The fact that there was polytheistic practices around it at some point in time does not change the fact that it is a place of worship for Muslims.
In any case, even the non-Muslim Arabs at the time also acknowledged this fact. As such, given that Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, is a descendant of Abraham, Peace be upon him, and both are Muslims, it follows that they would have similar traditions, coming from the same source. Reclaiming the Ka'abah as a place of worship for Muslims is in accordance with this.
A myth is an attempt to explain mysteries, supernatural events, and cultural traditions. Sometimes sacred in nature, a myth can involve gods or other supernatural creatures.
The fact that the same sources that assert the existence of figures such as Abraham and Ishmael also state that an angel talked to Ishmael's pregnant mother and that the Sakina (a spirit sent by God) or Gabriel guided father and son to the location of the Kaaba, etc. make this story mythical.
Edit: I see your point, that mythology by definition implies the supernatural.
At the same time, we have events that had elements attributed to the supernatural, which did take place, and are historically documented. The two need not be mutually exclusive.
Wait ... "Not connected to money"?! How is this different from building a movie theatre complex, or Disneyland? Why would we imagine its not all about profit at root? I'm not that generous.
Not going to compare to disneyland, but compared to many other religious places, for example, there is no way to donate money for the cause of Hajj anywhere in Mecca or Medina. The government does not ask for your money, nor does it encourage you to donate money at the mosques. Say what you want about the Saudis, Hajj is not seen from a pure profitability standpoint as far as I can see.
Confused: who is staying in those hotels? They are free? The food is free? The travel? In one breath we hear how folks spend their life savings, and in the next that it is all a charity. Something isn't adding up.
It's rather unfortunate that Mecca is in Saudi Arabia as it gives them free reign to preach their Salafi/Wahabi ideologies and no one else.
I come from a Shia family and many of my relatives who have gone to pilgrimage and complained of abuse by the religious police there for being in a different sect.
Hajj visas are very restrictive. You aren't allowed to go anywhere except Mecca and Medina, and you're only allowed to stay for the length of hajj plus a few days extra for travel. And many of the people who go to hajj have spent their life's savings just to get there. So not a lot of foreign money is flowing, at least not compared to those other places.
> there is a spiritual purpose behind it, not connected to money,
Religion, especially in what's pretty much a theocracy-lite, is very much tied to power and money.
SA is swimming in oil money, so it doesn't need to perform some crass commercialization (although I'm sure the restaurant, transportation, and hotel industry benefit directly), but maintaining and consolidating power is part of this game. Humanity didn't start religion because we felt unusually generous. Its a way to gain power and resources by exploiting various human desires like the need for meaning, the need for afterlife beliefs, etc.
"IEA (2010) defined Middle East as Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.[1] According to this definition, Middle East population was 127 million in 1990 and 205 million in 2010." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Middle_Eas...
They are doing good job on scaling it but are actually applying all the tourism practices to Makkah and ruining the essence of Hajj. They have commercialized everything which is completely opposite of what Hajj is supposed to be.
Amazing city. It's unfortunate the Ajyad Fortress (1) had to be demolished to make way for the tower with the largest clock face in the world (2). I also note every time I visited a devout Muslim's small business or home, and they have a picture of the Grand Mosque, it's free of the new modern additions that will facilitate two million (and growing) pilgrims who visit every year. I suppose the Saudi government didn't care much for past heritage and tradition because, for muslims, Islam is the religion for the present, and the future.
Note that the Byzantine iconoclasts were heavily influenced by the very early Mohammedan conquests, which rather tends to support the Wahabbists' claims to be the original Islam.
Quran and Hadith, devoid of their historical context, leave them open to application as required, to safeguard the interests of the ruling elite. It's all about power and organised religion is one of the most potent tool to keep masses in check.
Why is it well said? The same could be said for any religion. Committed followers and believers, praying right now for this life and the next.
Besides, reflection of the past is a crucial component of Islam. The pilgrims re-enact rituals from thousands of years ago. You might even say, without faith in ancient stories interpreted from ancient books, there would be no annual pilgrimage to Mecca.
It seems to me the slogan "Islam is the religion for present and future" is designed to explain the giant shopping mall clock, more than any insight or true reflection about Islam.
That clock tower and hotel are an abomination and in bad taste.It's as if someone decided to put a Las Vegas style Casino style building right next to the Vatican.
I know I used to work for Dar Al Handasha (who designed that clock tower) and even as a non mulslim I think its a shocking way to treat they holy places.
I'm not muslim but did live in Saudi Arabia for many years (aramco) and have to say that the saudi government is very devout when it comes to hajj. When accidents happened, the entire country was upset regardless of the news blackouts. The ability to provide hajj underpins the royal family's authority. They take is very personally.
But a few things...
(1) The ban on non-muslims is not as tight as portrayed. More than a few westerners have been to mecca, many to advise on hajj matters. There are also legendary stories of non-muslim children being brought on hajj by saudi families. I heard stories from neighbours, things more than rumours, but never met anyone who actually witnessed this.
(2) Lots of the people sleeping rough do so by choice. Many simply do not want pillows and beds during hajj. For them it isn't meant to be comfortable. More hotel-type rooms may help, but it will never get everyone off the streets.
(3) Security is a huge issue. Religious extremists have caused plenty of trouble. The Saudis have large numbers of soldiers hidden just out of sight to quell any repeat.
(4) The clockface is horrible, but that is the style in the country. People who go to Vegas sometimes remark about that style, but it is just a matter of taste. If you were living there it wouldn't seem nearly as bad. The clock itself also serves a purpose. Many pilgrims do not wear watches, most all are suffering jet lag and much of the process is now indoors. So like vegas, it is very easy to loose track of time. The various clocks are all big and horrible, but do serve some function. (It also has to be a mechanical clock, else everyone would insist on arabic numerals, which I've never seen on any digial wallclock.)
(5) The King actually does hajj each year, during the appropriate time. He has guards, but they could do nothing for him in a crush. For a man his age we have to give him some credit.
"The most comprehensive database of Hajj and Umrah ratings and reviews worldwide! Find out what pilgrims say before you choose your Hajj or Umrah travel agent, company, or group."
Like trip advisor but for pilgrims. Wonderful comments.
"They are terrible guys. They gave me wrong transportation and they overcharged me for the airline ticket as opposed to other people.
Avoid at any cost!!!! "
People just like us and many from HN travel to these places and they experience it in a great many ways. Hajj is not a holiday, but it's certainly travel!
Someone should pay more attention to preserving old heritage sites and historical structures in Mecca. The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this into a religious disneyland. What shame.
Perhaps somebody here knows, why are tents still used at the midway point in Mina? It seems that permanent structures and infrastructure would do a more efficient job of housing all the pilgrims. Is it tradition or a religious requirement of some sort?
afaik, it's because Mina is only populated during the Hajj and the temporary structures are deemed enough, while the other structures (additional lanes for the stone throwing, the tunnel or additional levels in the Grand Mosque) are either necessary or still usable outside of Hajj season.
In case you don't see any pictures, unblock "Optimizely". At least with the standard ghostery install it did not load any pictures before I allowed Optimizely.
There is practically no enforcement of the rule. There are highway signs on the way to Mecca, and that's about it. Unless you do something clearly unislamic in public, like drink alcohol, in which case you will get arrested regardless of whether you are Muslim.
Nothing to see there. Not long even Muslims get bored there. Wahabis are not really big on history and artifacts. If you think that this is some kind of an open air museum, think again.
It is not a place of entertainment or sight-seeing. Hajj is a Farz for Muslims. Anyone who enter's Mecca ought to do so with the thought of his Lord on him, seeking redemption and forgiveness.
Or Would you worship your Lord only if it is 'entertaining to you'?
There is a Dunkin Donuts right next to the Great Mosque.
Contemplate that.
(edits - seriously, I do. It's fascinating, the hotels, the logistics, the consumerism, the souvenier stalls, the clash of cultures, the clash of what islam means to different people around the world and the Saudi's interpretation of it. And then there's the western food chains, KFC is there, Dunkin Donuts are there, all halal of course).
Hajj & Umra esp. in Ramadan for Saudi is all about the $$ even if it hates to admit it so the consumerist side to these events or religious duties don't surprise me a bit as Saudis view them as an enterprise and are doing the best they could to collect as much dough as possible from these people to add to their coffers and make a killing in the process.
It's perfectly fine to say that an area is reserved only for adherents to a given religion. But your response incorrectly generalizes your personal beliefs as if they are true of all religions.
Non-Catholics can enter the Vatican. Certainly you don't think the Vatican exists only to entertain, do you?
As a core part of the Sikh faith, "the Harmandir Sahib is open to all persons regardless of their religion, colour, creed, or sex." (Quoting Wikipedia.) Do you really think that makes it solely a place for sight-seeing?
What makes you think it's for entertainment? Why are you so touchy? Plenty of people who don't believe in Churches or other places of religious worship still visit them, purely out of curiosity if not anything else.
Your last question is in extremely bad taste - and I say this as a non-believer.
I know you are saying it in earnest, and good for you. But I dislike the preachy tone 'Hajj is a Farz for Muslims. Anyone who enter's Mecca ought to do so with the thought of his Lord on him'. When you do this, you ignore lots of non-practicing Muslims, who are cultural Muslims, and like to preserve the identity. So they may be interested to visit Mecca, not with your kind of zeal, but just out of exploratory interest. The narrow vision of what 'ought to' happen, is very exclusive and purging. A bit like the Wahabi kingdom of KSA.
I totally agree with GP, it should be open for all, including Non-Muslims, lapsed Muslims and everybody.
Being a Muslim is to bow one's will to the Almighty. There is no such thing Wahabi/Hijji/Cultural Muslims. This is cleared in the Quran, that the religion chosen for us is Islam, not Islam Version A or Version B.
A Muslim will enter it knowing its importance, and though he may not be perfect in conduct, he would ought to ask for forgiveness.
Non-Muslims would naturally move about naturally, and end up doing things they do not know the gravity of, and over that not ask for forgiveness (from Allah). This is the reason in plain words.
For the Non-Muslims, my op stays as it is. Just because you are interested in sightseeing Mecca, doesn't mean we undo our own vows. Yes it is a beautiful place, you wanna watch it? Buy the tickets: "There is only one God, and there is no other God, that is the way straight". And you should be gladly allowed to sight see or pray.. whichever you want. Mecca's Hospitality would be yours.
>Being a Muslim is to bow one's will to the Almighty. There is no such thing Wahabi/Hijji/Cultural Muslims. This is cleared in the Quran, that the religion chosen for us is Islam, not Islam Version A or Version B.
Again, that's a black and white view of things, and violates the live and let live golden rule. Not just now, right after the death of the prophet Islam began to diverge. The Quran, itself was assembled into a book, after his death, during the 1st or 2nd caliphs time.
You should read up on Islamic history. The general populace has had several ebbs and highs in the nature and intensity of their belief, based on context and time.
Islamic history also has had a lot of free thinkers, even in medieval times like Al Ma'aari[1] and Ibn Rushd[2]. I also learnt, that there were liberal Muslims in 15th century Andulus-Spain, from a fascinating book by Tariq Ali[3].
I also read this recent article on 'free thinkers in Islam'[4]
Not sure if you know, the Turkish nobel prize winning author, Orhan Pamuk, also identifies himself as a cultural Muslim.
So you can't wish away the diversity and free thought. Currently we seem to be going through a phase of high tide in intensity of belief. You may be surprised to see it ebbing away in the coming decades. Just my view.
Abdus Salam, winner of the 1979 Nobel Prize in Physics, founder of Pakistan's space program, promoter of the peaceful use of nuclear power in Pakistan, advocate of scientific research by and for the developing nations.
Abdus Salam, devout Muslim, who quoted from the Quran in his Nobel Prize speech.
Abdus Salam, part of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, declared non-Muslim by the Pakistani Parliament in 1974. Despite being rejected by his own country, and living overseas, he continued to support Pakistani scientists.
Abdus Salam was buried in a cemetery in Punjab, Pakistan, next to his parents' graves. The epitaph on his tomb initially read "First Muslim Nobel Laureate" until the local magistrate forced the words "Muslim" to be removed.
"Not Islam Version A or Version B" my ass. The only way to achieve that purity is by force; use threat of expulsion or death to enforce religious totalitarianism.
Since Muslim literalists quashed non literalists such as Mutazila back in the Middle Ages and Islam is in free fall at least from an intellectual point of view.
Mutazila thought was reintroduced into Sunni Islam by later schools of thoughts. It is most prominently included in the Hanafi madhab which predated the literalist movement.
What would make you think that a non Muslim person would be interested in 'redemption' and 'have the thought of his Lord on him' whatever that might be when visiting or exploring Mecca?
Sorry to burst your bubble but non Muslims in general are only interested in visiting Mecca for the historical value and contents that it holds nothing more.
That's why I warned the OP that there is not much to see as the Saudi Wahabis destroyed virtually everything of historical value in the city and the surroundings in the same fashion ISIS has been doing in Syria or Iraq and even this is becoming a very sensitive topic for Hijazi people, the natives of the region since those Bedouins from the midlands and desert are destroying their heritage while they sitting idle and getting away with it.
Prophet Adam (Peace be upon Him) created the first House of Worship at Kaaba.
During the time of Prophet Nuh (Noah) (Peace be Upon Him), it was in one sense, 'lost'.
Then Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) 'the true' and Prophet Ismail (?) (Peace be Upon them) rebuilt the Kabba again.
Again and Again, Kabba and Mecca with it, were lost (to what?)
Until At last, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) cleaned it for the last time. Removing the 360+ idols placed within.
A interesting story, just Before the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is that a certain king vowed to destroy the Kaaba, and plunder the city of Mecca. To which he was roughly told 'The Owner of this House is well capable of protecting it'. The Army of that King was killed by a hailstorm of stones carried by countless birds, a sign for those who believe.
Your username looked familiar. I finally figured out where I'd seen it. Earlier this year, we both commented on an article about the Charlie Hebdo massacre.[1][2] You said, "I think both parties were at wrong here." and, "…the level of Satire in question here, was perhaps too much."[3]
I recall being utterly astonished by your comment. People were murdered for drawing cartoons and you insinuate that it was partially their fault. Shame on you.
Just out of interest: what do you think is on-topic for HN?
Also, from the guidelines.
> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
I think you're misunderstanding the point of the guideline. In set theoretic terms, "good hackers" are a subset of "anyone". Thus, something that's interesting to anyone is by definition interesting to good hackers as well, and is therefore fine. The problem arises when there are too many submissions that are not interesting to good hackers. That's what keeps this community from becoming just another StumbleUpon or Digg or /r/news. If it's not interesting to most "good hackers", it's off topic. If it's interesting to "anyone", to include "good hackers", then it's fine.
"good hacker" is a subjective term and an obvious True Scotsman. It might as well mean nothing more than "your interests correspond to the interests of the moderators."
This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudis to expand the masjid, build camps at Mina, allow hotels to be constructed, modernize the facilities, etc. that every person is able to actually perform the rites of hajj at the proper times. Hajj consists of a number of rites that have to be performed in certain places at certain times on certain days. Think about what it takes to organize millions of people trying to do this. It's very different than organizing thousands, or tens of thousands. You have to accommodate all their sleeping arrangements. You have to provide enough space for marketplaces so they can get something to eat. You have to widen the roads, air condition the facilities, make sure each group leaves at their own time, etc.
It's true that the Saudis aren't perfect, and they make mistakes, but my point is that it's easy to get the impression from the massive construction projects that they are just trying to make another Dubai or Olympics. But really, there is a spiritual purpose behind it, not connected to money, and there is also a lot going on behind the scenes that you can't see in the pictures. It would be easier for the Saudis to just restrict the visas to a tiny fraction and not go through with all of the construction and organizing, but they are making the effort as you can see. I know this is not going to be a popular comment here but I'm just trying to offset all the negative comments with some positive.