> One of the keys to treatment is catching it early.
And then given the right information. My parents were told I might never cross the street alone or write the letter K in handwriting because it was too complex. Look at me: I type 500wpm and write software better than most in class.
The issues for me arise with planning and social things. I might make plans, but I am never able to stick to them if there is no real urge. If someone is not waiting for something to happen and I don't feel like doing it, it's not going to happen. If I think I can make something in 5 hours and the deadline is midnight, I might start on it 4 hours before midnight. And then there is a whole range of social issues, though I can go to a normal school and normal businesses.
My parents just disregarded the entire diagnosis at 6 years old because, look, I could cross the street not much later. Up until about 13 years old, this approach worked fine. It might have been nice to know what really is going on though.
Unfortunately, with such a wide spectrum I'd expect doctors and therapists probably want to 'underpromise and overdeliver', as they don't want to get hopes too high. We've seen people who told us our daughter would be talking by 5, 6, 7 - she's 10 now and says some single words but never sentences. Others have told us to plan for lifetime care. It really depends on the type of person that is giving you the information.
I'm sure your parents are thrilled with your progress and the fact that you exceeded the expectations of so many people. Thanks for sharing your experience.
(Twelve attempts later I've solved HN's captcha and created another account so I can comment again. The old one says I'm commenting too fast despite a few upvotes.)
Yes, and I know that. Better this than the other way around. Then again, from what I heard at least, the doctors didn't mention that it might not have to be that way and that I might be able to do all the things they said I couldn't. That time would have to tell.
> I'm sure your parents are thrilled with your progress and the fact that you exceeded the expectations of so many people. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Thank you for saying that. Embarrassingly (but since this is a throwaway), reading that did make me spill a tear. Talking about it in this thread makes it negative; the way you put it makes it not all bad because I know my parents feel that way and I'm doing my best for them. Thank you.
> The old one says I'm commenting too fast despite a few upvotes
New accounts are rate-limited because of past abuses.
> Twelve attempts later I've solved HN's captcha and created another account so I can comment again.
I'm sorry you went through that. I can't do it in fewer than a dozen attempts, or without screaming, either.
The captcha is a service of Google's and is currently borderline unusable [1]. But this isn't Google's fault so much as that captchas in general are just broken right now. We're using them as minimally as we can. In fact, everywhere the code currently invokes a captcha, it used to refuse to make a new account at all.
We marked your account legit so you won't get sent back to captcha hell.
>I'm sorry you went through that. I can't do it in fewer than a dozen attempts, or without screaming, either.
I really appreciate that YCombinator found someone with empathy to work in the capacity you do, dang. In general, there's way too little of it in the online world.
Thanks! I got frustrated after even a newly created throwaway was immediately unable to post anymore on fiber and posted one more comment (that I had already typed) over 3g. Right now I'm too busy to comment more, but thanks for flagging me as legit.
While on the subject, I might also mention that the guidelines ask me to mail info@ycombinator.com for questions instead of posting here. I would, it's just that:
> Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:
For the record, I never sent bulk e-mail to any address or service. It's really a hard reject and not just a push to the spambox. Google doesn't seem to care about individuals hosting their mail at home (usually I end up in spam, something Gmail users never seem to look in).
Not being able to comment normally and then not being allowed to email you because of a third party (which is too monstrously large to complain to) is quite annoying.
I understand that, which is why I put it in double quotes and qualified the statement. It doesn't seem to me like you can flip a switch and be "cured." Another question -- what's the overlap/relationship between introversion and autism/Asperger's? I'm not saying introverts have Asperger's, I'm wondering if people with Asperger's are often also introverted. (lots of trigger-happy people thinking I said you had autism for being an introvert... which is not what I asked)
An introvert will lose energy rather than gain it in complex or highly active social situations, but will still emotionally feel a good connection with the person or people they're around. Someone with ASD has a much more difficult time "feeling" the positive benefits of socialization, whilst they may learn to enjoy it more from a left-brain analytical perspective. Not to say its a lack of empathy, in fact you can actively feel other's emotions in many cases, but the actual inner feelings of community and belonging may be pretty muted.
I feel you. The weirdest thing about it for me is that I try to hide this even from myself. I'm trying to be normal all day and think I don't even suffer from autism that badly, but every now and again it just cracks.
In a way I'm like everyone else. I care about friends and family; I try to be productive and make useful things; I like learning about new technologies. At the same time I'm also different and people notice it. They don't ask me when a group in class is going out to celebrate the holidays. I'd chicken out of this social happening and probably say no, but what bothers me is that they don't even ask.
Some vocalize that they notice something is off and I might tell them about autism and give them an outline of what it means. If I tell them I often also ask if they can put it into concrete examples of what I do differently. They never can.
But I'll carry on. I'm normal enough, I can pull through life and make a living. Hope to meet a SO some day who understands me. That probably means she must have her limitations too and I'll have to live with that, but in return she might understand mine and that's worth all the gold in the world.
Hope this isn't too weird a post for Hacker News, I needed to write this after reading about a fellow person with autism. Keep hacking.
>Some vocalize that they notice something is off and I might tell them about autism and give them an outline of what it means. If I tell them I often also ask if they can put it into concrete examples of what I do differently. They never can.
This really hits home for me.
I've never been diagnosed as autistic or Asperger's, but I'm very socially awkward, anxious, and have always been considered quite "weird" by peers and strangers. I also believe I share many symptoms with those who are on the autistic spectrum; if I ever saw a doctor I suspect I might get diagnosed with something.
I've also just about never been invited to any social gathering or to "hang out", though even if I was asked I'd almost definitely make an excuse and say I couldn't.
Any time I ask someone about exactly what it is that I do differently, I can never get a precise answer.
Over time I've come to realize what some of those differences are, and every day I try to consciously change or remove them, but it can be difficult. Sometimes I'll forget, sometimes it'll be very instinctive, etc. It really does feel like putting on a mask of normalcy a lot of the time though.
If it makes you feel any better, there are a lot of people like you and me out there.
Ditto. I'm well past the age where a diagnosis can officially be made, but I know several people with autism or Aspergers at varying degrees of functionality, and they will tell me that they think I've got Aspergers.
I went through a long period where I kind of mostly knew how to fake normal, and be sociable, and hate it, but I've mostly gotten past that. I attribute it to getting really lucky with friends- high school had a lot* of people who were just as weird as me in different ways, so we could all tolerate each others weirdness together and not feel awkward about figuring out social skills. And then I got even luckier in college to get noticed by people who actually did invite me to go hang out and go to parties, generally show that they cared, even if I didn't end up going half the time.
Things like making eye contact, figuring out how small talk works, conversational turn-taking, reading other people's facial expressions / other body language steel feel like consciously applied skills that do not come naturally, but with a few years of practice with that kind of background, it is no longer actively miserable to do.
The biggest influence in all that, though, was my wife. I really lucked out on finding a nice understanding, mutually introverted young lady who decided she wanted to marry me and let me skip trying to figure out how dating works! She's a big help with interfacing with the Real World.
*Uh, by the standards of my typical preferred introverted circle-of-friends size. Like, 5.
When I was diagnosed with ADD as an adult, the doctor said, people with ADD are just like everyone else, only moreso.
A lot of what I feel, and the comments I see from those diagnosed on the autism spectrum, sounds like good old introversion. An introvert in a social setting is very much wearing a mask, trying to hold on long enough before all willpower is drained. I guess an extrovert probably feels the same about reading Large Scale C++ Software Design on a Saturday night.
Across the spectrum of neurodiversity (incl. ADD & autism), a large gap exists in language for:
- common emotional experiences, good and bad
- coping patterns for profiling & impedance matching other humans
- dysfunctional behavior patterns that should be avoided
Sadly, because most of these behaviors have been observed from the viewpoint of medical pathology, many "dictionaries" have a negative slant.
E.g. ADD could be a "deficit" of attention, or it could be a "surplus" of attention, e.g. someone switches into a context for a few seconds, then switches out because they are already finished processing it. It's like the duty cycle of an electronic component, forcing the duration to be longer would lead to sensor overload.
Someone could be labelled introvert because they can only spend a short amount of time with other people. But perhaps they have low psychic barriers for the energy of other people and are being bombarded with emotions. Is that anti-social or super-social? What if there was standardized terminology for configuring emotional firewalls?
The language of disability is often defined by majorities. One ADD person with four non-ADD people may be viewed as "rude" for interrupting before sentences are complete, whereas one non-ADD person among four ADD people may be unable to keep up with five concurrent and tangential conversations where completed sentences are entirely optional.
> The language of disability is often defined by majorities. One ADD person with four non-ADD people may be viewed as "rude" for interrupting before sentences are complete, whereas one non-ADD person among four ADD people may be unable to keep up with five concurrent and tangential conversations where completed sentences are entirely optional.
Thank you for making that comparison. I still struggle to hold back from finishing others' sentences, even though it seems like I finish them "correctly" more often than not.
I'm also reminded of how how middle eastern peace talks are complicated, in part, by the major differences in conversational styles. One side expects to be interrupted, while the other finds it incredibly rude.
>E.g. ADD could be a "deficit" of attention, or it could be a "surplus" of attention
This is very true. Of the six types of ADD, one is "over focus". It is ironic that someone with attention deficit disorder can focus intensely on the same thing for 12 hours. I'm not an expert on the biology of it, but it seems like a problem caused by improper regulation of some chemicals in the brain, the same way improper regulation of insulin release can cause all kinds of problems.
Why the false dichtomy? I consider myself a very social person, and I can still treasure a night at home with a cpu reference manual. I see no reason to value one over the other as they are not on the same thing.
The idea that introverts are somehow better programmers is a bit like seeing someone with glasses and expecting them to be bookworms. I understand it is a convenient social role up for grabs, but not everyone who think they are good programmers really are.
A lot of the hackers I know are very easy going and social people. We come in all shapes and sizes.
Introvert-extrovert is a spectrum, not a false dichotomy. It is also a model, and certainly no one fits either archetype 100% accurately. There are people across the entire spectrum, and people who have both traits at different times. I only observed that many of the comments by those diagnosed with some form of autism seemed to be mostly on the introverted end of the spectrum, and sometimes to an extreme. It's anecdotal evidence at best, and perhaps means nothing. Just an observation.
Programming was just an illustrative example. Certainly there are programmers who are very social and extroverted. However, if you went into 1000 random night clubs on a Saturday night and polled every person, it's a safe bet that the percentage of people who would rather be at home engaged in software development would be much lower compared to a group of 100k introverts. The fact that you may not fit that description, or that you know some people who don't fit that description, is at best anecdotal evidence.
Introvert-extrovert is a spectrum. The false dichotomy is that extroverts is not entertained by programming and/or other intellectual ventures.
It is simply a preconceived notion without any real evidence, much like the one that people wearing glasses is more intellectual than others.
There are good and bad programmers among both extroverts and introverts. I know a few introverts might wish things to be different, but there is simply no evidence at all for this. If you are to have an intellectual discussion about these things you have to let go of your preconceptions.
I very much appreciate it! Thanks so much for sharing. It's inspirational how positive you are, even given the frustrations you outlined. When so-called "normal" people treat different people so poorly, it makes me wonder who really has the disorder.
I can't really comment on all you have said. But you and a few others replying to you have echo'd the sentiment that "you wish you were invited even though you wouldn't have gone". People pick up on that. It really only takes one instance of turning down an invitation to go out and people will get the impression / idea that you don't want to hang out with them and cease inviting you. Especially if you don't make an attempt to reciprocate and invite them to do something.
Just 2 cents from someone who has experienced similar feelings.
> Some vocalize that they notice something is off and I might tell them about autism and give them an outline of what it means. If I tell them I often also ask if they can put it into concrete examples of what I do differently. They never can.
The people who can't give examples, can't because they're not emotionally sophisticated or developed enough yet where either 1) they can notice and articulate specific examples or 2) they're comfortable having a genuine discussion on the difficult topic. It's hard feeling like you're missing out, but if you apply yourself in your field and interests you might find that you can make more genuine and worthwhile friends elsewhere.
Not too weird at all! Enlightening, generous, and gratefully received here. Difference is not something our society, and it seems most societies, handle well. Here's hoping a better line is found between empowering and transforming.
"Every culture thinks that it knows the best way to care for babies. DeLoache and Gottlieb, both professors at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, have gathered fictionalized accounts, based on factual information and including a brief description of the culture, of how various societies throughout history and the world think their offspring should be raised. Each of these accounts is written in a style similar to Dr. Benjamin Spock's child-care manuals, but using the traditions of each represented culture to create an analogous guidebook. This is an entertaining and educational collection of invented guidebooks spanning the globe. Questions such as what is the key to a successful pregnancy, when to bathe the baby, how long to nurse, and how to celebrate the various ceremonies that revolve around a birth are descriptively explained through the eyes of societies such as the Puritans of New England, the Fulani of western Africa, and a Muslim village in central Turkey. This book is an intriguing opportunity to learn about other cultures."
And then given the right information. My parents were told I might never cross the street alone or write the letter K in handwriting because it was too complex. Look at me: I type 500wpm and write software better than most in class.
The issues for me arise with planning and social things. I might make plans, but I am never able to stick to them if there is no real urge. If someone is not waiting for something to happen and I don't feel like doing it, it's not going to happen. If I think I can make something in 5 hours and the deadline is midnight, I might start on it 4 hours before midnight. And then there is a whole range of social issues, though I can go to a normal school and normal businesses.
My parents just disregarded the entire diagnosis at 6 years old because, look, I could cross the street not much later. Up until about 13 years old, this approach worked fine. It might have been nice to know what really is going on though.