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Hes committed to building thousands of Optimus robots for a market that does not exist while cutting back on building evs (a market that does).

I think its pretty clear that Musk has lost his goddamn mind. And the American corporate system and Government seem powerless to do anything.


The reason is probably that Tesla is falling behind on EVs, or at least feels like they've juiced all they can from them at the moment, but advanced robotics is still on the upswing and probably is far from reaching its full potential. They have enough money that moonshots like these probably seem irrelevant at their scale.

As for the space datacenter idea, I think this is just a case of extreme marketing that Musk's ventures are so accustomed to. Making huge promises to pump their stocks while the US government looks the other way. When time comes for them to deliver on their promises, they've already invented ten more outrageous ideas to make you forget about what they promised earlier. Hyperloop as a viable mode of transportation, tunnel networks for Teslas, SpaceX vehicles as a mode of transport, X as the new 'everything app', insane timelines for a Musk-led human mission to Mars. They've done it all.


Tesla was a decent car with a very good computer in it.

They never bothered to improve on the car part, causing Teslas across the western world to fail inspections at staggering rates when the very basic car bits couldn't handle the torque of an EV.

Now old manufacturers have caught up on the computer front and China is blowing past at crazy rates and Tesla is legitimately in trouble.

The very high profile CEO cosplaying as an efficiency edgelord with the american president didn't help the company's image at all either.


To be precise: humanoid robot TAM $0; vehicles TAM ~$2.7 trillion.

Why does Google need outside investors? Is it a play to get a “serious” valuation since it would be vetted by outside parties?

I guess Im questioning why Waymo doesn’t just IPO, or raise 100% private raise by Google.


It's a very capital intensive operation given the amount of vehicles that need to be carried on the balance sheet.

There are many reasons why a conglomerate like Alphabet doesn't want to hold all of that directly on the balance sheet, which is why Waymo is run as a subsidiary with its own sources of capital.

When I was at Uber 10 plus years ago and we were ideating autonomous vehicles. The general consensus was that we would run the technology platform and private equity would own fleets of cars built and operated to our specification.

Waymo has concluded either we are too early in the journey to decouple the tight vertical integration or they want to go very big and own all of the capital expenditure for what will presumably be a global rollout ultimately.

For anyone like me with a finance and technology crossover interest I actually think this is as interesting, maybe more interesting, than the private equity play around data centers at the moment because all of that is constrained against chip delivery and power constraints.


> There are many reasons why a conglomerate like Alphabet doesn't want to hold all of that directly on the balance sheet

Can you tell us those reasons? I think this is basically _the_ question.


"Tech" was incredible light on CapExp compared with everything else (until AI hit, that is). That is what allowed its explosive growth. On the one hand alphabet is not used to that. On the other hand it is turning into a more normal business with more CapExp, and like other more "normal" business it uses more external investment. As a general rule of thumb: The more capex, the more leverage; for example commodity extraction, infrastructure or power generation are very capex heavy, and heavily leveraged.

Right but thats usually debt, not equity financing.

I disagree with their reasoning and would say it's more for strategic benefits.

Giving firms that they get along well with (like Sequoia) allocation feels like a mix between a favor and possibly a way to signal that the valuation has some external buy-in too.


> The general consensus was that we would run the technology platform and private equity would own fleets of cars built and operated to our specification.

Private equity, or private capital (debt investors)? Although I guess PC was less of a thing 10 years ago.


Alphabet is providing $13bn of the $16bn raise. What are you talking about? Do you really think that $3bn matters in the slightest?

What I'm talking about is that is still considered an external capital raise for the purpose of the markets and where those assets sit on the balance sheet.

Also, keep in mind the Alphabet doesn't fully own Waymo. I don't know the percentage ownership of hand, but that also feels like it's probably a prorated investment based on ownership so Alphabet doesn't reduce its voting control.

That's what I'm talking about.


Yes and what matters the most is what Waymo has been signaling for years. They don’t want the capex (owning and running the physical cars). I don’t know the intent of this raise but you have to realize companies may have a good asset but they don’t want to own it 100% for a multitude of reasons. Some of them could be as simple as wanting to get other investors involved and comfortable with the asset to maybe take on larger roles in future rounds. Or in this case potentially running the car part of the business.

By investing $13B of the $16B they're signalling they do want the capex, at least for now.

If they truly wanted the capex, this would not be a mixed round A fully internal recap would have been simpler. The presence of outside capital, even minority, is consistent with a gradual transition toward shared ownership, asset light structures, or operator partners.

They have made many comments over the years about this too.


What gradual transition? Alphabet's ownership percentage is unchanged.

Notice I left a list of potential reasons. Not that ownership has changed. Just pointing out for folks like yourself that Google has made commentary about this exploring the idea of partnering with companies that operate the physical fleet. $3bn even if chump change for you is still a larger placement and has some level of signaling indicating the want to get other folks involved at some level.

I didn't ask for potential reasons. You're talking about the "reasons" for a "gradual transition," and I am telling you that this investment isn't transitioning anything. Everyone is keeping their equal share of the company. So, I don't understand why you are giving reasons for something that isn't currently happening.

I think the words are going over your head sorry. I will try one more time but realize now it might be too much especially see some of your dead comments here.

I am not claiming a transition is happening in this round, so asking for evidence of one misses the point. Transition here means enabling future shifts in who owns and operates the capex, not changing the cap table today. If Alphabet wanted permanent full-stack ownership, an entirely internal recap would have been cleaner. Bringing in outside capital, even minority, is about signaling and optionality, not dilution.


I understand everything you have said. The D-K of you WSB transplants is wildly frustrating.

If you'll notice, all I am doing is asking the brigade of snarky know-nothings to stop talking. I'm not pretentiously claiming to know, unlike all of you. You clearly aren't in any position to understand the internal working of Google, and it's unfortunate that HN used to be a place where a question like the original one would have been answered by a person who does, but is now flooded with people like you. I will gladly take the downvotes if they're from a bunch of garage band stock pickers.


Go take a breath and stop digging a hole. Nobody is being rude to you but you are highly inflammatory and honestly a real lowering of quality. Take a bit of your medicine and step away. I am sorry you feel the need to be so rude back to everyone.

You are not “just asking questions.” You are dismissing any analysis that is not insider gossip as illegitimate, which is a convenient way to avoid engaging with the substance. No one claimed NDA level insight. We are talking about incentives, capital structure, and signaling, which is literally what outsiders analyze. If only Googlers are allowed to reason about Google, then HN has no purpose beyond rumor laundering.


> I think the words are going over your head sorry.

(You)

> Nobody is being rude to you

(Also you)

I guess things are only rude if they're said to you, and not by you? Seems logically consistent with all your other takes.


I definitely modulated my tone to match yours and some of your killed comments. Sorry you don’t like what you see. Happy to have a discussion but not be told I am someone from Reddit. Low effort and low class. You are consistently being rude and you just need to reflect on some of your comments. Your right my comment back to you was definitely not nice but look at some of your killed comments. Ick.

Sure thing boss. What other advice stemming from your vast experience, wealth, and psychological heath do you have for me? I'd love to improve my image to you... the "ick" police.

What are we arguing about here? My point was $3bn is minority to the total investment but it does signal some intent. It’s also no chump change.

Sorry no advice for you but relax and step back!


This is why you are not the finance guy.

My finance people care about the cents, a ROI of 7% is average but at 8.5% and now you are a world class asset of that inventory type. That’s sometimes the difference of a few hundred k out of 20m but they would not take the deal if it is slightly over due to their risk appetite.

The 3b external either matters a ton to fit their risk models OR they are doing a favor to an outside party. Probably a bit of both.


Well, given that it is an equity sale, split still feels like it is the prorated amount so that alphabet continues to own its percentage - not more not less.

Obviously you're entitled to your view, but I don't think it's that kind of finance model right now - it's far too speculative and the upside too unknown to be adjusting for small amounts on risk models.


three billion here, three billion there, pretty soon it begins to add up to real money

> why Waymo doesn’t just IPO, or raise 100% private raise by Google

This lets them validate their valuation and build a base of investors who could play a bigger role in writing chequew in the future. When IPO comes, those factors make the sell simpler.


a deliberate strategy to establish market-validated pricing, prepare for eventual independence, and impose governance discipline on what has been a protected moonshot project. The move signals that Alphabet is transforming Waymo from an “Other Bets” science experiment into a standalone asset with credible external valuation—likely positioning for an IPO within 2-4 years once profitability arrives.

I'm not sure how useful this pricing is for the future, as waymo is currently operating on semi-infinite Google money. If that stops, no doubt the price would change too.

The counterargument would be that the external investors (Sequoia, Andreessen, Fidelity, etc.) presumably priced in this exact risk when they agreed to pay $110B. They're not naive about Alphabet's role as backstop. The question is whether they believe the "semi-infinite money" assumption is durable enough over their investment horizon.

Money from Google internally might be subject to internal power dynamics and come with strings attached. Having reliable outside funding from people who don't get a say in things might be a better alternative for a project that doesn't want to end up as Stadia 2.0 .

I think some of the external investors have board seats, so the outside people do get a (small) say in things. And to your point, that's probably also a good thing for avoiding another Stadia mistake.

Google Genie would have disrupted Stadia anyway, fwiw.

I think it will be quite some time before you can prompt Genie for the next GTA, Skyrim or Call of Duty.

Yes, it provides external validation for the valuation. Otherwise, Alphabet can simply "self value" Waymo at a funny amount like $1T.

There's also a strategic partnership angle in these rounds. For example, Magna and Autonation were early investors in Waymo. Magna operates Waymo's factory in Arizona to upfit their vehicles with sensors, Autonation (the huge dealership/service network) is the maintenance partner.

In general, the Alphabet playbook is that projects "graduate" out of Google X, and are expected to operate as a standalone company, including being responsible for raising funds.


>> or raise 100% private by Google?

Isn't that what they are kinda doing? 13bn out of the 16bn is coming from Google itself.

I think the reason they are taking 3bn from outside high-profile investors is to validate the valuation, for legal or accounting reasons.


I also wonder this - my best theory is getting institutional buy-in from all corners will help with the regulation going forward.

Why would you bet your own money when you could bet someone else’s?

Alphabet is only giving up around a 3% stake. They continue to own most of it, and mostly bet their own money.

If you are betting on a winner why split with others?

If you know the winner, it’s not gambling. Self-driving cars are still a gamble.

risk management. Even sure thing bets lose money once in a while, so it is a good idea to spread the risk of that around.

Rich people and big companies buy insurance too.

Why risk your own money, when you can risk others'?

>I guess Im questioning why Waymo doesn’t just IPO, or raise 100% private raise by Google.

Why not 100% internal funding, not sure, but the reason why companies don't always IPO is because taking on debt is more efficient (i.e. it's cheaper in terms of cost of capital) than equity, because of the "tax shield" effect, debt can be raised in a non dilutive manner, and a few other (less important) game-theoretic reasons.


[flagged]


This reply also falls in the category. It’s easier and faster to downvote poor responses and move on.

Not when there's three like-minded accounts upvoting each other.

There were pretty good responses so far and the only people coming below the bar are folks like yourself. Time for some self reflection. Instead of complaining about comments on HN perhaps you should review your own behavior.

I take that reply as a "bar raiser" that HN commenters should be better, not as a low quality/effort reply.

a little kid is inevitably going to get killed by a waymo.

institutional finance is america's most powerful lobbyist. in the sense of the fund managers, the little RIAs, the grandmas holding SPY. they ARE the voters.

so to me, aside from making money, making money this way, for a lot of people, protects them from the political grandstanding and their fast demise in their absence.


> a little kid is inevitably going to get killed by a waymo.

And it will be 100% the kids fault, but the headlines will look terrible.

Kids can be naive and reckless, and the result makes them look downright suicidal with the things they do. They will dart into traffic, and even if the Waymo has single-digit millisecond reaction times, people will still blame the Waymo.


> And it will be 100% the kids fault, but the headlines will look terrible.

I wouldn't be so certain on the fault front. I share the SF streets with Waymos on the daily, and they are extremely far from perfect drivers.


They need at least one fatality before you can start going down that slope, but probably true comparing how many kids get killed by human drivers, Waymo can’t be so safe as to avoid these incidents if they scale up in numbers.

Unfortunate but true. Just as true as human drivers doing the same. No technical system guarantees a failure rate of zero.

>institutional finance is america's most powerful lobbyist. in the sense of the fund managers, the little RIAs, the grandmas holding SPY. they ARE the voters.

This. They're letting wall street in on it so wall street goes to bat for it. It's the big boy version of how some widget manufacturer will revise a product to necessitate or cut out a trade lobby depending on whether they want those people to go to bat for it, or make all the people who don't wanna pay rent to those people go to bat for it.


> Why does Google need outside investors?

i.e. why should I use my money if I can use someone elses'?


If you use someone else’s money you have to pay him back with interest or equity.

> you have to pay him back with interest or equity

That's the price for infinite scaling. If a business can't make more than that it should be shut down.

i.e. do you want to make 25% of 1 billion or 5% of 1000 billion?


The point the great-grandparent is making is that Google could comfortably finance the project itself and make 100% of the upside, not 25% or 5%.

And the point here is borrowing more money increases available funds for bigger rewards. Google can fund 1 Waymo but not an infinite amount of them.

Companies raise money for big projects all the time. From issuing debt, to issuing equity.

He's talking specifically about Waymo's situation. Alplabet, a company who has $75bn of FCF, owns 80% of Waymo. A $16bn capital injection is meaningless to Alphabet, so he's wondering why they're going through the trouble.

He raises a good point, and the answer is likely that they can run into legal issues by either under or overvaluing the company in a capital raise where they're the controlling shareholder, then the IRS or existing investors have grounds for a lawsuit (or audit). They likely just want to bring the capital raise out in the open to get a fair market value, and then they will be 90% of the capital in the raise.


And an MBA. He seems like a lot of people I know who skim through their technical degrees just to get the credentials. And my experience is that Masters is often easier to get than a Bachelors.

Anyway what he did makes it abundantly clear that this person should not be head of security for anything.


A polygraph isn't a competency test.

It's a person reliability test and he failed it.


> It's a person reliability test and he failed it.

It does not have the capability to say whether the person is reliable. It is a bunch of pseudoscience, basically.


meh diploma mill is a dime a dozen in University of India

What do you mean “hiding it”? Are you suggesting Chinas manufacturing capacity is entirely fraudulent or cooking the books? Or that the state is providing subsidies? Because if its the latter… have you seen the brouhaha over Amazon HQ2? Or seen the number of tax credits/incentives doled out by US cities to companies that “promise” jobs but don’t even deliver them? (but keep their subsidies).

tesla is not making robots.

They can capture the market without moving the workforce there. Meta/Instagram/WA have dominated Indian market for a decade now.

It seems like this is pure labor arbitrage. Growth is gone so the only way to increase profits is by cutting costs, with labor force being the top line item.


> They can capture the market without moving the workforce there. Meta/Instagram/WA have dominated Indian market for a decade now.

The former is a logistics company. They need an on-the-ground workforce in places they operate. The latter are social media products, no local workforce of significance needed.

That said, we are in a world where Amazon is able to do labor arbitrage of software-adjacent jobs by moving them to India. That's been happening for more than 2 decades. Nothing short of new laws levying penalties, or a massive consumer boycott will stop that or slow it down.


You are describing a colonial model, extract all the wealth while investing nothing in the local economy. That era is over.

If anything, Meta is the anomaly, not the role model. They should be required to invest more given their dominance, rather than being praised for extracting maximum value with minimum local footprint. Regulators will likely close that gap eventually.


"Exchanging goods and services for money to a locale" is not a colonial model.

I, a strawberry farmer in Florida, should have no obligation to create an office of locals in every geographic location I sell strawberries in.


If a foreign entity came into Florida and bought up 35% of the entire retail infrastructure, you bet the US government would regulate it and demand local value capture.

Case in point - US actively forced TSMC and Samsung to build $65B+ of factories in Arizona and Texas to secure domestic interests.


And Chinese/Korean workers being fired while American workers are being hired by their companies would absolutely be correct to see their jobs being offshored

No but you give up a large margin to shippers, importers, distributors and retailers in those geographic locations.

Which is an entirely different dynamic than what the person I responded to was calling for

> If anything, Meta is the anomaly, not the role model.

Meta try very very hard to avoid having any data within Indian borders, because of their privacy laws.

This necessitates not hiring product or data people there.

Source: worked there for five years many moons ago.


Investors will only invest in AI plays. They don’t seem to care for fintech.

Probably true, but our fintech still gets tons of unsolicited emails from growth equity shops. I don't respond because as you mentioned this sector is out of favor, and as such the multiples are not worth my time.

thats just top of funnel, the instant you respond the terms start to become very very unfriendly

Indeed, cold outreach is to get you excited and then once you're in the weeds, your value is going to get crammed down.

...and Blockchain!

Was this ever a thing?

I know individual investors get pretty crazy for blockchain, but I don't recall any major companies doing big investments.

At most, I was asked about it briefly, explained what the usecases were, and it never came up again.


> Was this ever a thing?

At some point yes. Lots of large financial institutions had such projects. IBM e.g. was involved in quite a few of them.


stripe bought a stablecoin and its leadership seems to talk about it a lot https://www.pymnts.com/news/ipo/2026/stripe-co-founder-says-...

> Cryptocurrency and stablecoins are also starting to see traction after an extended struggle to gain mainstream adoption, John Collison added, per the report.

> William Gaybrick, Stripe’s president of product and business, referred to agentic commerce and stablecoins as “twin revolutions in intelligence and money” at a company event in 2025, the report said.


You’re buying into Republican propaganda if you believe this.

What are you talking about? GM sold more cars in China until very recently when Chinese buyers started flocking to EVs.


SGTM? :D


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