Believe me, I wish I had documented it. I didn't realize that this would be surprising or controversial until I described the experience later to others. Some people basically didn't believe me.
The basic flavor was that I spent at least an hour getting a working apple account and getting signed into it, and I used at least two other devices to achieve that.
I do vividly recall that whenever I performed the final successful account verification, rather than seeing a success message, I saw a page or webview that just had a huge XML document in it. I only knew that attempt worked after I just tried logging in again. But that was one papercut out of dozens from my hazy recollection.
If I ever set up another Apple thing, I'll take photos, but it will probably work perfectly then. Oh well.
Recently tried multiple terminals because I am gradually migrating off of Macs and I liked Ghostty but the lack of searching the scrollback has turned me away from it. Opening another editor to do the same I tried but didn't like.
WezTerm has everything I need and is closest to iTerm2, minus being able to quit it and have it restore all windows and tabs on restart -- but oh well, it's not an important enough feature. It also renders my prompt perfectly; no small pixel divergences like all other terminals have.
Kitty I don't remember why I rejected.
Alacritty I like but the lack of tabs is not acceptable for the moment... and before you ask: I hate tmux. So much more key presses to achieve basic functionality, it boggles my mind why people love it. But, to each their own obviously.
It's also likely I'll settle for some Linux-exclusive terminal but as I'm not yet possessing a Linux workstation (just a laptop) I haven't put the requisite time to do this research.
Maybe worth another look at then? I'm far from a Kitty power user, but it does pretty much everything else I want it to, including working as a quake-style terminal[0]. And you can extend it with kittens[1] if you so desire. Also, the next release should presumably include smooth scrolling[2] which I'm quite looking forward to.
Maybe more than any one feature though, I appreciate the hard work that Kovid (the creator of Kitty) has done to tastefully add new VT standards and try to make terminals as useful as they can be in the 21st century.
Kitty is the best one. It has several features which have proven so useful I wasn't able to stay on anything else for more than a couple of hours (including the one this topic is about).
Ctrl+Shift+G wraps the output of the previous command into a pager (say, less). You often only know you needed a pager after that output is printed.
Ctrl+Shift+E highlights all links on the current screen and assigns short alphanumeric codes to them, so you can open links without using the mouse. For example, `Ctrl+Shift+E 1` opens the first link, `.. 2` the second one, etc.
Ctrl+Shift+U opens symbol search where you can find & insert symbols using their unicode names. Emoji, TUI blocks, rare accented characters you need once in a blue moon, CJK ideographs, whatever.
These small quality-of-life features make a big difference. In my terminal (TerminalNexus, Windows) I added per-tab session colors - click a palette icon, pick a color, and the terminal background and tab header change for that session. Simple but it's saved me from running commands in the wrong environment more than once.
Kitty is great, but its author has very strong opinions, strongly held; this keeps a number of popular requests summarily rejected. In particular, there is no way to color plain bold text, which is possible in basically any other emulator. This is a deal-breaker for me personally, it makes reading e.g. man pages unnecessarily hard.
I'm not the GP, but I do remember why I rejected Kitty when I tried several terminal emulators last years: it broke quite a few of my workflows.
For instance, in vim the F3 key was broken[^1]. It was very surprising and weird, and a portable workaround required some arcane vim configuration.
Another important pain point was that the font rendering was different in Kitty to any other app, and very dependent on the screen DPI. IIRC, for a DPI around 100, I had to switch to "legacy rendering" because the default rendering was barely readable.
I also remember issues with SSH. And Kitty crashed at least once. And I wasn't a fan of Kitty's mix of C and Python. After a week or two of usage, my Kitty config file was big, with an extra hundred lines of Python for the tabbar. Despite some nice features (like the shortcut to put the output of the last command into a file), I got uneasy with all this mess. I tried Ghostty, which was as good as Kitty with much less oddities.
I wouldn't say I love tmux, but I have a configuration file that I put on every computer I use regularly that is very comfortable for me. I basically live in the terminal across many different machines, and having the same interface for managing panes and tabs even when using ssh is invaluable.
I also use vim (well neovim) as my primary editor, and have set up tmux to integrate well with it, so that might contribute to my appreciation and continued usage of it.
If you spend any amount of time on remote machines with unreliable connections, local tmux is insta-reject because tmux inside tmux is very inconvenient. As with GP, it's also why I don't consider terminal emulators without tabs at all.
I hold Control and double-tap b for managing the remote session, then everything else is the same.
Granted, I'm not a power user, so there may be numbers that get frustrating. I could imagine complex splits getting confusing (I don't use splits at all).
C-b is less ergonomic than C-a that is the default on GNU screen. The first thing in tmux is to remap to C-a. (Triply so if you remap caps lock to ctrl.)
I switched to zellij, but I made more like my tmux was because I didn't want to learn new binding; C-q activates tmux mode. C-q + g locks so I can pass through comamnds to inner zellij. C-g unlocks. on super+enter for it opens a ghostty it and atached it to zellij session named $(hostname).
On reboot it remembers my tabs and panels and even commands that ran inside last (i.e there is popup in every panel that had something runing to run it again or just open a terminal)
Before my great wayland migration I ran patched st and it was great. Terminal job is render what terminal multi-plexer gives it and passes input to multiplexer.
I went with C-a for quite a long time, but then I discovered that C-a is a keymap for jumping the cursor to the beginning and f the line, so I remapped tmux prefix to C-Space.
Yep, I've been using tmux for almost 10 years. Its config has followed me across every terminal I've used in Windows with WSL 2, macOS (work laptop) and native Linux. It's a nice abstraction over getting split panes, windows (tabs), sessions, search, scroll back, consistent key binds and the overall theme to work the same across environments.
What proper window manager shows tab group list at the top of the current app window and allows shortcuts/mouse to reorder the list and also allows moving a tab outside of this list to another tab group?
Sway and i3. But when a WM does it, you can mix different apps in the same tab group, and your tab key binds can be the same as your WM key binds. You don’t have to remember alt+h for tabs, win+h for windows, etc.
But I’m just busting your chops, don’t listen to me. I don’t even use i3/Sway, or use tabs at all. Everyone has their own workflow that works best for them.
Scrollback does exist on Ghostty! But you need to switch to “tip”. This can be done in the config file.
The tip build is very stable and has many bugs fixed (like various memory leaks).
there's scrollback search in the nightly build if that's an option for you (I've been using it a ton for a few months and haven't seen any bugs so far):
I haven't seen anyone else mention Terminology yet. It uses an unconventional GUI framework (Enlightenment / EFL), but that aside, it's fast and has more or less all of the features you'd expect of a terminal:
Back in 2018 I thought it felt kind of sluggish and consumed quite a bit of resources, but looked pretty. Have they improved on performance since then?
Are you sure you're thinking of the same terminal? Its standout feature has been performance. Granted, that was 10+ years ago, but I've never noticed it regressing.
You can search scroll back on Ghostty nightly. I switched straight from iTerm2 (after 20 years of iTerm), but _do_ remember the reason I rejected Kitty: it has a ton of Python in it, which is usually indicative of software which is going to be a pain in the ass.
> Alacritty I like but the lack of tabs is not acceptable for the moment... and before you ask: I hate tmux.
Surprised none of the other commenters have mentioned zellij. I work across windows (WSL) and linux so really like having the same set up for both, which means no Ghostty/Kitty since they don't support windows.
Zellij is a lot smoother and nicer looking out the box, and its key shortcuts are pretty intuitive. There's a lit of advantages to not having an extra layer, but zellij + alacritty is definitely worth having in your list of options!
I like tmux because it does more than tabs in an emulator. I can detach from a session on a remote host to leave a process running after I disconnect, or to pick the session back up on another PC.
I do use tabs rather than repeatedly switching tmux sessions, but I do end up running tmux for splitting the GUI into side by side layouts.
Detaching is working just fine with `screen` as well.
I like the idea of tmux but as another poster suggested, I prefer to just get better at my
window manager to achieve similar results. tmux requires way too many key presses for me.
I built a Windows terminal emulator (TerminalNexus) and scrollback search was one of the first things I prioritized. Ctrl+F opens a search dialog with regex and case sensitivity, and the buffer size is configurable per shell profile. No tmux needed.
Very glad for that--it's what made me stop my evaluation the first time around. I looked for the feature in issues and just saw #9821 about memory use of the buffer which could be an issue if configuring very large scrollback as I do.
BTW is there feature parity between macOS and Linux, e.g. scrollback buffer searching on Linux?
Personally kitty is the only one I keep coming back too. Mostly because it's very customisable, fast, lean, ligatures, separate font for italics, great macro support, and supports automatic tiling panes.
> Alacritty I like but the lack of tabs is not acceptable for the moment... and before you ask: I hate tmux. So much more key presses to achieve basic functionality, it boggles my mind why people love it. But, to each their own obviously.
Tabs usually mean mouse+click to switch which takes way more effort that a simple alt+number or similar keybinding used to switch "tabs" in tmux. I'd guess that some terminal emulator tabs allow keybindings to switch tabs as well but, modelling OP, I'm focusing on the expected default experience.
No, zero mouse usage, you can both address each tab by number and just moving between them. I wouldn't have any terminal emulator without the latter feature at least, and all I've tried support it.
Been a long time since I last tried tmux but was not switching between panes something like Ctrl-B + Ctrl-<something_else>? I don't remember but if it was that it's still much more than Super-Left/Right.
You can turn on a feature documented as allowing the terminal to be controlled by escape sequences, but then output of programs can control the terminal! Whoop-de-do.
That's a nice way to handwave drive-by unproductive "rust btw" commnents.
Sure there's comments on all spectrums. But rust commenters are on an extreme end of it when it comes to making sure the world knows how other languages are inferior and often their users too.
Thanks for yet another example if toxic behaviour by that community. So now arguing is also "parroting".
If you were discussing in good faith, instead of belitling arguments as "parroting" you'd use something like algolia to find the answer for yourself. And you could have an easy start by finding comments from the links on this post alone. Let alone 10 in the entire HN in the last month. But that is of little interest I see.
Funnily I already see some on the first page, incredible:
You see what you want to see and I refuse to be dragged into a mud-slinging contest. Please reconsider your tone for the future. Start off better and we can chat.
I started periodically asking the same question and I get 20-25 upvotes and then eat 15 downvotes some hours later. One recent example (if ~75 days is recent: https://hackernews.hn/item?id=46291249).
It is a very weird case of aggressors pretending to be victims.
Did I see zealous Rust comments? Sure! 4-5 on HN in the last 5 years maximum. On Reddit it could be 10-15 for the same period but the discourse there is not very civil or informative anyway so I started ignoring them and not thinking them representative.
On HN I see regular Rust hate while claiming that zealots are everywhere... and like you, I just can't see it.
It can be a recurring grant if a target OSS project continues to be highly valuable, but risky. When it loses value or is derisked (e.g. by extra funding), then grant priority will naturally move to another project.
Depends whether you go with Tumbleweed, Slowroll, or Leap. I believe the Kernel Of The Day repository is only available for Tumbleweed. By 'latest' kernel you did mean bleeding edge nightly builds, right?
I want to have VMs that are kind of like Arch but a little bit more stable, yet have very latest versions of everything I need with minimal risk (no need for the bleeding edge at all times; Manjaro does this semi-okay with its two weeks grace period).
OpenSUSE has the whole OpenQA thing (<https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests>), although I think bugs may occasionally slip through the cracks. I tend to bounce back and forth between Arch and OpenSUSE Tumbleweed (currently on Tumbleweed because I wanted SELinux and setting it up on Arch is a bit more involved than I like), and aside from the KDE 4 to Plasma 5 transition I haven't had any major issues with either one (though I suppose if I had, booting from and restoring a snapshot on Tumbleweed would have be easier than on Arch because Arch overwrites the kernel while Tumbleweed keeps up to... I think 5 versions).
I don't need 100% of all software. Just a tiny fraction and they're modern tools that are heavily iterated on. Is it possible they have bugs? Very much so!
But "stay on an older version to be safe" is not the panacea many try to pretend that it is. Way too many bugs and security vulnerabilities on old versions as well.
If you’re on debian, there’s the backports repository, And stable means stable in terms of feature. They still patches for bugs and security, and quite fast for the latter.
You are getting too worked up about this, not to mention cherry-picking.
Debian Trixie, to my knowledge, comes with Linux kernel 6.12 LTS. Many people with more modern hardware want the most modern Linux kernel -- currently 6.18 -- to support their devices. There are also countless stabilization patches (I heard some of my acquaintances praising their Linux kernel upgrades as finally giving them access to all features of various Bluetooth periphery but did not ask for details).
Having a modern kernel is important. With Debian though, it's a friction.
Can it still be done? Sure, or at least I hope so as I want to repurpose my gaming machine as a remote worker / station and the only viable choice inside WSL2 is Debian. I do hope I can somehow make Debian install a 6.18 kernel.
Furthermore, you putting the word "need" in quotes implies non-determinism or even capriciousness -- those two cannot be further from the truth.
Arch and Fedora can't come to WSL2 soon enough.
...and none of that is even touching on the issue of much older versions of all software in there. I want the latest Neovim, for example. For objective developer experience reasons.
Debian stable is for purists or server admins. Not for users.
No. I just see the same person in this discussion making multiple posts saying "Fedora is modern, fedora is good, stable Debian is broken, old, and wrong".
Of course my reply is a little mechanical and biased because I'm refuting a strawman.
Suggesting that Debian's stable release is no good for users, when I'm sat here using it, and many many other people do so is crazy hyperbole!
Maybe you can show me that person and their claims so we can work with them?
Because I'm not that person.
Sure I said users and not programmers. Sue me.
I was criticizing Debian's model. I'll be getting Arch or a derivative on my main machine but for WSL2 (secondary machine that is for now stuck on Windows) I don't have much choice so I'll have to work with a distro where I'll have to actively work against how it normally operates. I'll handle it, but it doesn't need to be that way.
You don’t lose stable. It will only install the package you select and deps.
Also the terminal is the main interface for Linux and the BSDs. Why does having to learn it is a negative? A computer is not a toy. You don’t drive a truck with no training.
>You don’t lose stable. It will only install the package you select and deps.
We are fighting over definitions, but now you are no longer standard. Things will be broken. I know this, I've lived through this for years before I discovered up-to-date distros.
If download Fedora, I'm standard. Everything will work.
>Also the terminal is the main interface for Linux and the BSDs. Why does having to learn it is a negative? A computer is not a toy. You don’t drive a truck with no training.
Thats outdated. That is debian mindset. Fedora just works. No need to use the terminal, sure it works, but you can use the computer for a year without ever touching it.
I need to emphasize, you could. You just don't have a use. You are never sending random lines from a linux form to solve a problem. Why? Because it just works. Sure you might unblock some firewall ports so you can host a server, but you aren't doing surgery.
I cannot emphasize enough that Fedora works. It doesn't need fixing.
Or just understand that Debian stable can be moved to Debian testing (or even Debian unstable if even 2 weeks is too long) trivially. The best decision that Debian has ever made is not to distribute or advocate for testing as a rolling distribution, because if you're too ignorant to change your repo to testing, you're really too ignorant to be using testing.
Admitting that getting 6.18 on Debian is some sort of insurmountable mountain is not something I would do in public while trying to show off my expertise. I'm not running it, because I don't need a kernel that's been out for 5 minutes and offers me nothing that can't wait a month or two. I'm running what's current on testing, which is 6.17.13. It's about a minute of work to switch to testing. I run stable on all my servers, and testing on my laptops, it is a triviality. But to all you bleeding edge software people, it's somehow rocket surgery.
> Many people with more modern hardware want the most modern Linux kernel
To run the latest version of Progress Quest. Need biggest number available.
> Arch and Fedora can't come to WSL2 soon enough.
So, it's really still Windows, then. I assume you've moved from spending years ranting about how Linux people were purist server admins and Windows was for users and just worked, and now you've chosen the same posture after being pushed out of Windows.
> Debian stable is for purists or server admins. Not for users.
You're not a typical user. Most users want a functional computer, not the largest numbers they can find.
>Admitting that getting 6.18 on Debian is some sort of insurmountable mountain is not something I would do in public while trying to show off my expertise.
I genuinely don't care to show off expertise. I just want a distro that works.
I'm really not sure what made you so rude but I'm not participating. You're intentionally misrepresenting because I didn't say even one thing of those you so criticize, yet have the gall to speak about showing something in public.
The following is a list of valid distributions that can be installed.
Install using 'wsl.exe --install <Distro>'.
NAME FRIENDLY NAME
Ubuntu Ubuntu
Ubuntu-24.04 Ubuntu 24.04 LTS
openSUSE-Tumbleweed openSUSE Tumbleweed
openSUSE-Leap-16.0 openSUSE Leap 16.0
SUSE-Linux-Enterprise-15-SP7 SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 SP7
SUSE-Linux-Enterprise-16.0 SUSE Linux Enterprise 16.0
kali-linux Kali Linux Rolling
Debian Debian GNU/Linux
AlmaLinux-8 AlmaLinux OS 8
AlmaLinux-9 AlmaLinux OS 9
AlmaLinux-Kitten-10 AlmaLinux OS Kitten 10
AlmaLinux-10 AlmaLinux OS 10
archlinux Arch Linux # Arch found here
FedoraLinux-43 Fedora Linux 43
FedoraLinux-42 Fedora Linux 42
eLxr eLxr 12.12.0.0 GNU/Linux
Ubuntu-20.04 Ubuntu 20.04 LTS
Ubuntu-22.04 Ubuntu 22.04 LTS
OracleLinux_7_9 Oracle Linux 7.9
OracleLinux_8_10 Oracle Linux 8.10
OracleLinux_9_5 Oracle Linux 9.5
openSUSE-Leap-15.6 openSUSE Leap 15.6
SUSE-Linux-Enterprise-15-SP6 SUSE Linux Enterprise 15 SP6
Ontop of that I also use it as my main distro for WSL2 for a few months (before I used the unofficial one).
Not an impressive feat then. We all had to make do with shoddy stuff just to get a project done (and I am not talking only in programming but also in meat-space). But to then hold on to it with a death grip, yeah, these people I don't respect.
Nobody is stoping anyone on putting a quick project up-and-running using Rust, let's say. But good luck finding people to maintain it in the long run. And good luck finding the "batteries included" stuff. And good luck on many other things. We're all building bazaars, not cathedrals, and that's ok, even though we oftentimes seem to forget that.
True, nobody is stopping anyone and that's why I am gradually moving my stuff from bash/zsh to Golang and might even further migrate it to Rust in the near future -- LLMs make these things almost trivial and my only hurdle was how verbose can Rust feel for a basic CLI app. That hurdle no longer exists.
But don't look at me, I never liked Perl, PHP, Ruby. They were, and still are, hacks. I was aiming at people who just accept the status quo and shrug.
The iMac Pro is a 2017 computer, although it was sold until 2021. So given that it runs Sequoia, that's anywhere from six to ten years of OS support. OCLP will probably figure out how to patch Tahoe for the iMac Pro soon enough, but until then, you can rejoice in the fact that you don't have to run Tahoe.
It could be worse -- at least you didn't spend tens of thousands on a 2019 model Intel Mac Pro in 2023. (Yes, they still sold them, and owners of those will be SOL in 2028. That's probably the worst OS support story in recent Apple history, and it's for some of their most expensive machines)
Actually you are correct. I've been following the HN threads about Tahoe and even watched a few YouTube videos and could only facepalm.
But then again I'll get rid of the iMac Pro this year. I'll have technicians butcher it and salvage whatever they can from it -- I suspect only the SSD will survive -- and will then tell them to hollow it out and put an R1811 board inside it so I can use it as a proper standalone 5K screen. I don't care about Macs anymore, they limit me too much and I can't maintain multiple Linux machines just when I figure I would want to do something that Macs can't do (like experiment with bcachefs or ZFS pools and volumes and snapshots for my continually evolving backup setup).
Fair. The screens are really beautiful, absolutely worth reusing if possible.
I'll be decommissioning 40+ 2020 27" iMacs this year (i9-9900, 32 GB) and it's such a shame to see so many great displays and otherwise functional and plenty fast computers become, essentially, e-waste.
I agree, it is a huge shame. And the R1811 boards are more or less 300 EUR (~360 USD). Not many companies would agree to spend $360 on a near-future e-waste, per device, just to be able to extract the high-quality display. True shame.
But I've learned my lesson. While Apple computer served me well from 2019 to 2026, macOS gets less and less usable for me and the bunch of things I want to be able to do on it only increases, and its appeal only decreases (not to mention the very justified OCD I get when I look at how much crap is running 24/7 on it!).
The iPhone stays, though I wonder for how long more. But the Mac will be on its way soon enough.
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