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I think it’s just fear, I sure know that after 25 years as a developer with a great salary and throughout all that time never even considering the chance of ever being unemployable I’m feeling it too.

I think some of us come to terms with it in different ways.


I used to sometimes get stuck on a problem for weeks and then get a budget pulled or get put on another project. Sometimes those issues never did get solved. Or have to tell someone sorry I don't have capacity to solve a problem for you. Now a lot of that anxiety has been replaced with a more can do attitude. Like wouldn't being able to pull off results create more opportunity?

It fails far less often than I do at the cookie cutter parts of my job, and it’s much faster and cheaper than I am.

Being honest; I probably have to write some properly clever code or do some actual design as a dev lead like… 2% of my time? At most? The rest of the code related work I do, it’s outperforming me.

Now, maybe you’re somehow different to me, but I find it hard to believe that the majority of devs out there are balancing binary trees and coming up with shithot unique algorithms all day rather than mangling some formatting and dealing with improving db performance, picking the right pattern for some backend and so on style tasks day to day.


Doesn’t anyone use debuggers anymore?

When I have a codebase I dont know or didn’t touch in some time and there’s a bug, first step is reproduce it an then set a breakpoint early on somewhere, crab some coffee and spend some time to step through it looking at state until I know what’s happening and from there its usually kind of obvious.

Why would one need a graph view to learn a codebase when you can just slap a red dot next to the route and step a few times?


I have found that interactive visualizations are a great way to understand code and systems in general. Now you can have an AI make one in under a minute it's a very useful tool.

https://heyes-jones.com/externalsort/treeofwinners.html

Take this example. I can step through the algorithm, view the data structure and see a narration of each step.

A debugger is useful for debugging edge cases but it is very difficult to learn a complex system by stepping through it.


Which is a real shame as if you actually spend some time with both you’ll probably eventually realise erlang is the nicer language.

Elixir just feels… Like it’s a load of pre-compile macros. There’s not even a debugger.


Do you have other examples of how it's nicer? I've only ever heard of Elixir being the nicer alternative.

This is gonna rankle folks who like one or the other, but they're basically the same language. When it comes to languages that run on the same VM, Erlang and Elixir are very close together. They aren't nearly as far apart as say, Java and Clojure.

Elixir adds a few things (a lisp-style macro system, protocols, UTF-8 as the default string type, a builtin build tool, streams) but Elixir is not a huge departure from Erlang in the way that Clojure is a huge departure from Java.

By far the biggest things you're going to learn when you learn either one are going to be the BEAM runtime itself and the OTP libraries, which both Elixir and Erlang have in common.


I’ve been using blink on ios for years it’s opensource and works pretty well for me.

I actually kinda like working on my ipad this way (ssh’d into dev box) it’s not really distracting somehow and not having full jetbrains etc makes for a different kinda session.

shrug


With NL that’s fully 40% of the population of the eu states.

It’s not great, but it’s not bad either.


phone number was a poor choice, agreed. Identifier should just be some guid attached to your bank account of choice and you get one for every device / card.

I don’t imagine that’s so very hard to implement later though.


This is a regulatory thing, devices used for instant payments should be somehow attested and be authenticated (or be a physical device the bank issued e.g your card).

It’s a difficult thing, we don’t want to have to force smartphone choices but the number of users without one these devices is so vanishingly small it’s very difficult to change the legislation in order to support them too.

I think the happy middle ground is making this system also work with bank issued cards.


This is not true. Many European bank apps allow instant payments and work without Google's remote attestation. They typically require a locked bootloader. I am in The Netherlands, use GrapheneOS and do instant payments all the time.

(GrapheneOS does support remote attestation, but the app needs to add their verified boot key fingerprints.)


Which bank? I work in this space for a large european bank and we wouldn’t be able to do this.

My Volksbank app here in Germany just wants a locked boatloads and no root. Works fine with microg. It's the reason I will never move!

Though the Sparkasse is the same actually, unsure about the other german banks


This is great news if it’s true, these regulations are so hazy it’s maddening. Even tho I’m being downvoted I am actually on the side of removing these barriers I was just sharing what I was made to understand by my bank. shrug

All Dutch banks for example? I do instant online payments and P2P payments all the time with a degoogled phone. My VISA credit card app (ICS) also works fine.

You mean via your banks web interface? Or via some tap to pay interface?

What i mean is can you use this to pick up a slab of beer in albert hein, or just to transfer some cash to a friend or such?


I can't pick up a slab of beer at Albert Heijn because it requires Google Pay. But some banks (I think Rabobank) have their own NFC app and then it works fine.

But instant online iDEAL payments etc. work fine. Person to person payments using Tikkie/betaalverzoek as wel.

Put differently, I never use my bank's web interface, only the phone app.


Not anymore, all Dutch banks have moved to Google/Apple pay unfortunately.

I don't see, why a smartphone plus NFC enabled token device wouldn't work within the regulation, we should go that way, (or any way decoupling Google & Co. from it) because we should be prepared for US companies to be forced to act unreasonably by an unreasonable leader.

There's technical possibility and then real world practicality.

For the same reason, a pure WebAuthn flow in a compliant browser could technically implement secure payment confirmation mandated by the DSP, but afaik no bank does that, and the W3C is still working on the spec.

Our governments can't even manage not to depend on Microsoft/Google/AWS (and Palantir, the US military industrial complex, Israel, ...), our banks are regularly under the fire of extraterritorial bullshit due to the USD dependence.

Being worried about consumer devices and their OS is cute, but it's missing the forest for the trees.


I agree, I’m not saying it’s totally correct or there aren’t answers, but those are the current rules at least in my bank.

Instant payments bypass typical surveillance and fraud systems and so need some kind of authentication, if you don’t want to 2fa every time you’re at the checkout then the application has to have been previously authenticated (e.g setup with some kinda TAN from your bank) and execute on an attested device. We can def extend attestation to other devices (e.g is the kernel modified, does the app have reasonable version and checksums etc) but again, who is gonna fund that for 10 users?

edit: We have a long road to go before this stuff gets better, I think we should be happy at each step instead of really wishing we were already at the finish.


Then I'll unfortunately have to continue paying the PayPal tax - apparently they have no issues running in any browser of my choice.

> I think the happy middle ground is making this system also work with bank issued cards.

That wouldn't let me pay online.


That’s authenticated and 2fa’d, so it doesn’t have the same use case as a tap to pay system, though. I’m not defending these choices, but there is a reality here.

> we don’t want to have to force smartphone choices but the number of users without one these devices is so vanishingly small

You are missing the point. The issue is that once the "vanishingly small" number of alternatives disappears, users will be completely trapped, and Google and Apple will then free to abuse that position of power (they already do). Worse, since power is centralized, it is very easy for government interference to take place, and we already see that with things such as identity and age verification requirements. It is the possibility of competition that matters more than actual competition.


Aren’t your problems solved by carrying a bit of plastic issues by your bank? Why isn’t that enough?

This "digital wallet" is precisely touted as an alternative to carrying plastic.

We really should try to understand your mentality, if only to understand why after 27 years the EU still doesn't have a PayPal alternative.

Because we don’t need it. The US banking system for example is fairly archaic. Where I live, paper checks went extinct about 30 years ago. Now with SEPA, bank transfers are cheap (cents), fast (seconds) and easy (IBAN). If our banking system would not be as convenient, I’m pretty sure something like PayPal would have been very popular.

So is it really just that simple? A lack of understanding what Paypal even is?

> A lack of understanding what Paypal even is?

Your account is from 2021. There were a lot of "Paypal locked my account and all my money is in there" stories at least 10 years before that year.

So YMMV.


Oh, you will underestand. When, besides your bank, half of the planet will know about your shopping habits.

The device called "Smartphone" is only used to collect every possible detail about your life. The smart thing on a "Smartphone" is that, besides your bank, a lot of other "vendors" have access (not only) to your financial information.


Sepa-inst requires 10 seconds or less end to end, this isn’t as easy as it sounds to implement, but we are kind of there.

The problem is how do you initiate this payment? Some kind of scannable code or nfc interaction seems to be the missing part. I’d also like to see some kind of physical card also work for those who don’t want or are unable to have an attestable device with them.


I‘d love if every receipt had an EPC QR code on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code

You scan it with your banking app and have all the details. But it’s not super seamless. If you find this code on a website on your phone, you have to screenshot the code and load it in the app. Would be nice if there was some kind of deep-link standard.


It’s also Theo’s favourite architecture, afaik he was mostly working on SPARC back on NetBSD before the fork. I’d expect it to well supported for a while longer, even if practically no one else uses it.

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