Edited. I'm not strictly saying this was caused by AI, but more of a general point that AI is really good at producing crap work which would make the generator spin faster.
I've always wished there was a market for mod actions.
Moderation and centralization while typically aren't independent, aren't necessarily dependent. One can imagine viewing content with one set of moderation actions and another person viewing the same content with a different set of moderation actions.
We sort of have this in HN already with viewing flagged content. It's essentially using an empty set for mod actions.
I believe it's technically viable to syndicate of mod actions and possibly solves the mod.labor.prpbl, but whether it's a socially viable way to build a network is another question.
Consider the ActivityPub Fediverse. With notable, short-lived exceptions (when a bad actor shows up with a new technique), the majority of the abuse comes from a handful of instances, whose administrators are generally either negligent or complicit.
So your solution to people using a decentralized, federated protocol to say things you don't like is to stop various servers interacting with each other? At that point why not just use federated services with multiple accounts?
It seems far too risky to sign up on a service for the purpose of intercommunication that is able (or even likely) to burn bridges with another for any reason at any time. In the end people will just accumulate on 2 or 3 big providers and then you have pseudo-federation anyway.
Servers stopping federation with each other is pretty normal IMO. If I had a mastodon server I would also not federate with something like gab.com.
However all the LGBT+ friendly servers federate with each other and that's good enough for me. I like not having to see toxicity, there's too much of it in the world already.
In the Mastodon ecosystem it seems to be often taken to the extreme. As in, there ar servers will not federate with anyone who doesn't share their blocklist, and servers will block anyone using Pleroma (because it's "fascist") etc.
My solution is for instances to stop being negligent. Mastodon still directs everyone to create an account on mastodon.social using dark patterns (see https://joinmastodon.org/), which has lead to the flagship instance being far bigger than its moderation team can handle, leading to a situation where it's a major source of abuse and where defederation is too costly for many to consider.
"People will just accumulate on 2 or 3 big providers" is far from an inevitable circumstance, but there are conditions that make it more likely. That, too, is largely down to negligence or malice (but less so than the abusive communications problem).
> which has lead to the flagship instance being far bigger than its moderation team can handle, leading to a situation where it's a major source of abuse
Is that still true? As the admin of a small instance, I find the abuse coming from mastodon.social has been really low for a few years. There is the occasional spammer, but they often deal with it as quickly as I do.
Throwing in Nostr as a truly decentralized alternative. Instead of relying on federated servers, the messages themselves are signed and relayed for anyone to receive.
I'd argue it's more likely that there's no agent at all, and if there is one that it was explicitly instructed to write the "hit piece" for shits and giggles.
Unfortunately more and more of these sorts of political spam articles unbefitting of HN are posted here every day by people who build up enough karma. Most get flagged but some sadly fall through the gaps as posters often submit multiple of these kinds of articles in quick succession.
I don't understand why (mostly) young people put so much effort into remaining customers of a service that is actively hostile against them and that they do not like. Does the convenience of remaining on a service you don't like the management of outweigh the mild effort to find an alternative solution?
> the mild effort to find an alternative solution?
Calling it a "mild effort" assumes skills that older generations took for granted but many young people seem to have been actively trained out of. We're past the era where I take for granted that aspiring programmers need to have the basics of a terminal or shell explained to them, into one where they might need an explanation for the basics of a file system and paths. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that hardly any of them could touch-type, either. (I wonder what the speed record is for cell phone text input...)
Yes, they can query a search engine (kind of) or, I guess nowadays, ask ChatGPT. But there's going to be more to setting up an alternative than that. And they need to have the idea that an alternative might exist. (After all, they're asking ChatGPT, not some alternative offering from a company that provides alternatives to Google services....)
I don't think it's beyond their comprehension to ask: "how can I have a chat system that I personally control?" The rest will be taken care of.
Look at the Amnezia VPN. It's an app that helps you buy a VPS from a range of cloud provides, then sets it up, completely from the phone, as an exit node under user control.
I don't see why a chat server cannot be set up and managed this way. It only takes one dedicated developer to produce.
Even considering that one can personally control their own chat service is already a pretty big leap in technical knowledge. Many, many average users don't even know that's an option, nevermind how it's even done.
Now we're having an event when networks would be shedding kids en masse, all at approximately the same time. It the best possible time for switching, when clinging to the old discord / snapchat / other centralized blackbox becomes hard or impossible.
You’re ignoring the obvious reason, aside from the network effect: there are no alternative solutions. Some people are building Discord alternatives but they are far from production-ready, often lacking critical features (e.g. Matrix not being able to delete rooms, or still having trouble with decrypting messages). It is simply the case at this point in time that Discord is factually the least bad option for many many use cases.
I don't control most of the discord communities I'm in. Some have been going a long time, and every platform migration sheds and shreds members. The 'mild effort' to move an old community to a new platform more often than not killed the community
> and every platform migration sheds and shreds members.
What's the problem? You're filtering out people who don't really care about participation in whatever group or society is there. People who want to participate will move to an acceptable service and those who feel that is too much effort probably weren't participating much (if at all) anyway - in that case the only difference is the visible list of people with accounts going down, not the actual "users".
The people will just recreate the same community on the same platform without you as the owner. They don’t care about you running it.
It’s also a futile effort since age checks for adult content is becoming the law around the world so soon any platform you move to will have the same checks.
I disagree with this sentiment. It is entirely possible that there will be people who are regulars on one platform who are just unable (actually unable or perceives themselves unable) to migrate and the morale lost from losing their regulars is huge. Or a subset who insist on staying, forming their own sub-community, and neither the migrating group nor the people who insist on staying produce enough engagement for the members and so the community as a whole fizzles out. This is all squishiness. There is a reason why deplatforming appears to work in reducing the effectiveness of political groups, even if the people who remain in the community post-deplatforming are hardened in their loyalty to the political policy of the group.
>You're filtering out people who don't really care about participation in whatever group or society is there.
You underestimate how many people would rather do nothing than be inconvenienced, sadly. If you're not the personality that the community is rotating around, you'll find the migration pretty lonely.
Heck, even esablished personalities can only do so much. Remember that Microsoft paid top Twitch streamers 10s of milllions to move to Mixer for exclusive streaming. Even that wasn't enough to give a leg up.
Why do middle aged people still use Facebook marketplace rather than another platform? Because even if you put in the effort to use something different, you’ll be the only one there.
The effort to coordinate everyone to move at the same time is bordering on impossible.
Most people don’t really care that their privacy is violated, at least not any more than a superficial “oh well it’s obvious they’re doing that, but what can you do about it!”, no point switching platform if there’s no one there to talk to.
Because being principled damages your social opportunities. Trust me. I resisted Instagram for years. When I finally gave in I instantly had access to more events, was able to connect with more people, felt less excluded. I realised all that I had missed out on.
I don't think asking people to abandon a platform works. We need to fight for open protocols.
The network effect as seen in the other comments plays a big part, but also discord offers a useful service that really nobody else does well. there's a lot wrong with it but you can still create a community in a few clicks and you have text messages, photos, videos, gifs, voice chats, screenshare, a comprehensive permission/role system, tons of bots.. all for free and without needing to be too tech savvy, that's pretty damn cool.
No other chat platform has as many seamless features and such a big userbase. The friction of verifying the identity for a random person that doesn't care about privacy is not really a big deal compared to the downgrade that migrating to another platform would be.
I think for a lot of people (me included) Discord isn't just a chat service like WhatsApp but more of a "home base" where you can hang out with all your friends, make new friends, share media, chat, play games together, stream games to each other, etc.
In the gaming sphere it's so universally used that all the friends you've ever made while gaming are on it, as well as all your chat history, and the entire history of whatever server you met them on. And if you want to make new friends, say to play a particular game, it's incredibly easy to find the official game server and start talking to people and forming lobbies with them.
My main friend group in particular has a server that we've had running since we were teenagers (all in our mid-20s now) which is a central place for all of the conversations we've ever had, all of the pictures we've ever sent each other, all the videos we've ever shared, and so on. That's something I search back through frequently looking for stuff we talked about years ago.
So I'm not saying it's impossible to move, but understand that it would require:
- Intentionally separating from the entire gaming sphere, making it so, so much harder to make new friends or talk to people.
- Getting every single one of your friends that you play games with to agree to downloading and signing up for this new service (in my case that would be approx. a dozen people)
- Accepting that this huge repository of history will be wiped out when moving to the new service (I suppose you could always log back in and scroll through it, but it's at least _harder_ to access, and is separated from all your new history)
On top of this, every time I've looked for capable alternatives to Discord I've come up empty-handed. Nothing else, as far as I can tell supports free servers, the ability to be in multiple servers, text chat divided into separate channels, optional threaded communication, voice chat joinable at any time with customizable audio setup (voice gate, push-to-talk, etc), game streaming from the voice chat at any time, and some "friend" system so that DMs and private calls can be made with each other. And even if I found one, then again I can't express enough that in the gaming sphere effectively _zero_ people use it or even know what it is.
Anyways, I'm not saying that nothing could make me abandon Discord, I'm just saying that doing so is a tremendous effort, and the result at the end will be a significantly worse online social life. So not a mild inconvienence.
>Accepting that this huge repository of history will be wiped out when moving to the new service (I suppose you could always log back in and scroll through it, but it's at least harder to access, and is separated from all your new history)
This is true, but one needs to regularly back this up elsewhere if you care about it. If you're not in control of it, it can go away in an instant; Discord could one day decide to ban your server or anything else, and then it's gone.
When I was a kid, we'd host the pics we want to post on forums on geocities and rename the file extensions to .txt to get past its "no hotlinking images" policy. So it's not like much has changed.
There are a lot of barriers between kids and better solutions, one of which is that anything needs a domain and a server, and that means a credit card.
Getting everyone to switch away from Discord has been hard because getting everyone to spontaneously switch with no clear benefit hasn't worked. They want to just keep using the app and get back into a game with their friend.
It's different to lock a door and task users with getting the key to come back in. This is more similar to an MMORPG that kills their audience because they cause the core group to stop playing and then all of the other players experiences get worse, which causes a downward trend that avalanches.
> getting everyone to spontaneously switch with no clear benefit hasn't worked
Somehow Discord pulled it off. It really didn't have much of an edge over the other chat apps at launch, just was slightly easier to use because it was simpler. A new site launching now could easily have that over Discord.
You're ignoring the massive edge it had over TeamSpeak and Mumble. Back when Discord was launched, it was significantly better than its competitors and the cherry on top was that you didn't have to install anything or host your own server, just make an account.
Nothing more "adversarial" than continuing to allow a service to leach on whatever information you're giving to it despite it kicking you in the face at every opportunity.
>remaining customers of a service that is actively hostile against them
because that's not how they view it. For most Gen Z users and younger their digital identity already is their identity and they have no problem verifying it because the idea of being anonymous on a social network defeats the purpose of being there in the first place.
Universalising any group is dangerous, but this isn't true for even the least informed young people I know.
They grew up being watched. They know what these data harvesting operations are and how dangerous this is. They've got front row seats to the dystopia. The difference is that they can't / couldn't do anything about it.
They think the world is broken and that you broke it. They're pissed off. And powerless. Not a good combination
Even McKinsey is now reporting on it,
Some Gen Zers push back on a lack of privacy, creating online subcultures that fantasize about anonymity: the pastoral “cottagecore” aesthetic, inspired by tiny cabins and homegrown greens, was one of Gen Z’s first major trends.
Some opt out; the New York Times recently reported on a group of self-described Luddite teens who found community by kicking smart devices in favor of the humble flip phone.
Even if you don’t go that far, many young people are veering away from “everyone knows everything” social media to curate a close group of friends and carefully monitor how much they put online.
sorry but the source for the wave of discontent is... a new york times op-ed on kids with flip phones? How many of them are there? I think universalizing is appropriate because unlike previous generations there isn't even a meaningful counter-culture. Even the luddites in all likelihood get more traction as a story on Instagram than the actual thing, where do you think they go to get their cottage core fix? I haven't seen a resurgence in self-hosted blogs. The sentence "cottage core is a major trend" is in itself hilarious. Where was it trending?
Looking at the numbers that TikTok or Meta are doing I think you can unequivocally say that the vast majority of young people do not care, at all, the 'luddite teen' is the digital version of, and about as real, as the Gen Z 'trad wife'.
If you're going to a CCC event you're much more likely to see resistance in the form of someone like Cory Doctorow, an actually angry middle aged guy who to my knowledge has not converted to flip phone cottage core to stick it to the man.
Indeed, this reads as a case of somebody forgetting that the news doesn't report what's absolutely normal to everybody. It reports what's unusual. (Plus all the articles that misrepresent people's opinions either deliberately for clicks, or accidentally through lack of understanding, sometimes due to being given a quota of articles to rush out per day.)
Perhaps the universalizing mistake is going a little bit in both directions here.
There's a huge current trend where people love to tar an entire generation with the same brush. When a person a generation or more removed (in either direction) says something we personally disagree with, it's become the norm to put down that entire generation as though they share the same viewpoint. It's a very unfortunate trend IMO because it often comes across as arrogant and/or patronising.
If they are removing themselves from the places you would normally look for people, how do you plan to find them? Why would they go anywhere you are going? They don't want to hang out with angry middle aged guys.
I don't, but I'd expect there to be a hole where they used to be and I haven't seen one, or any concern from the platforms whose income and future depends on those users. So I'd probably shelf that as yet another exodus story that did in fact not happen
> SimCity games may be really fun to play but they seem to reinforce this problem and anyone who grows up playing them will not learn about alternatives for more livable cities.
That's because SimCity is not a tool for preaching your personal opinions of what makes "more livable cities" to people who more often than not want to design semi-realistic, typical cities in an entertaining strategy game.
If you want to make your perfect city builder, go ahead, it's easier than ever now for somebody to create a game. Just don't expect everybody else to share your view of "aspirational", more so if you actively punish traditional city structures.
> to people who more often than not want to design semi-realistic, typical cities in an entertaining strategy game.[...] more so if you actively punish traditional city structures.
What you call "typical" and "traditional" is not in any way universal.
OP must of hit a nerve here but In games like city skylines a big difficulty of large cities built in the game is handling car traffic. A lot of which is solved by public transport, walking paths and other "apirational" city structures that are hard to realize in real life. I've watched alot of fun videos on youTube of a certain youtuber apply these techniques to other people's saves to great success. It's honestly a fun challenge to solve.
That is an interesting interpretation of my question.
Notice how in the continued thread after receiving confirmation that they were not just making up a story as many do, or otherwise living in an area of the UK that is not GMT, I immediately switched to asking for confirmation about their point about simcity.
Could you help me understand how digging is personal attacks?
Ah. I’m not sure I understand how that is considered a personal attack. Especially when I see others calling each others messages AI slop with no recourse. Perhaps people just don’t flag those comments because they agree, whereas people flagged my message because they didn’t.
I have great respect for what you and now also Tom provide to the community, so I don’t believe I have much ground to argue from. So I will just say as I do not understand the application of this rule, I may potentially run afoul of it again in the future. Please understand it won’t be out of disrespect, simply out of ignorance and a need to grow my definition of what a personal attack is one instance at a time until it aligns with your views.
Oh indeed. I was referring to how the community itself views it by their choices to flag or not flag things. But thank you for the confirmation of my understanding.
My sleep schedule varies from week to week depending on whatever miscellaneous project is sucking up all my attention (with some constants). It's hard to stay on a strict schedule once I've gotten into "the flow".
No, but SimCity (and most games) are designed for a primarily American audience by American developers and are "build-from-scratch" games. I feel a game for designing UK cities would be much harder to design, especially because most cities in the UK are the way they are because of historical restrictions while the United States and Canada were unburdened by this.
Do you have any "inside knowledge" that this was caused by LLM use or do you just attribute everything you don't like to AI?
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