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I feel bad for guys like Wyden.

The citizens of the U.S. are neither organized enough, sufficiently intelligent and motivated, to keep the various levels of government in check.

As we have seen with the Epstein stuff, even when the evidence is overwhelming and unambiguous there is massive amount of direct support and an accompanying vacuum of response

The only conclusion to be had is: Everyone is ok enough with the state of reality that they will not change it.

Everyone gets the governance they deserve


Help me here

Why can’t a company in the EU make a secure video/voice chat app?

There’s are EU companies that make teams alternatives:

https://euroalternative.eu/alternatives/microsoft-teams

Even if those don’t work SAP, Dassault, etc… make massively complex software and services across multiple verticals and could trivially ship a competitor


Element’s topco may be UK based for now, but the vast majority of our business and footprint is in the EU - https://element.io/en/about. All but one of our mobile app team is in the EU for instance (and when we started, the UK was too :|)

Why reinvent the wheel when there are already open standards like Matrix or XMPP that can be adapted to your use case?

Matrix isn’t a 1:1 replacement for teams

Depends on what features of teams you use, since it kind-of became an "everything" app

Teams minus the bloat and bugs?

Explain

...thank god?

> Why can’t a company in the EU make a secure video/voice chat app?

What makes you think they can't?

Microsoft's corporate edge isn't merely the product, it's also an army of sales, entrenched corporate markets/clients, lock-in, etc.

You could have a better version of their product and still get eaten alive.


In the Netherlands, a lot of government systems aren't procured from the Microsofts of this world. There are a lot of middle men (consultancy agencies) involved that over the years have helped build a strong ecosystem with lots of expertise around Microsoft and related suppliers.

So indeed, it's not like you can just replace a software product (or service) by some EU or open alternative. And there are huge vested interests.


Same in Germany. I think in any European country.

And don't forget Copilot! ;-)

There is Wire with HQ in Berlin, Germany.

https://wire.com/en/


Jitsi

Formerly - skype

Matrix


The idea of the likes of SAP spinning up a new product quickly and painlessly seems like a joke.

In defense of SAP, their product really is built to be configurable for every use case under the sun.

The french government recently did: https://github.com/suitenumerique/meet

I mean German police is using Palantir.

There is nothing magic about Palantir, especially not about the subset of Palantir that the German police uses as we have stricter data privacy laws.

You might think that would be a strategic risk not worth taking especially with the US getting more hostile towards Europe but here we are.

Why? Honestly I don't have a good answer other than well the whole system is rotten, corruption, lobbyism, take your pick.


One major issue is system management:

Installing another app, such as Signal, on your personal computer is one thing. On 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 computers, installing it, configuring it, changing settings, updating it, backing it up, locking down settings from user changes (such as retention) - all that requires special tools to do it efficiently at scale. Without the management tools, no way that bit of IT can be used.

The most common tool by far is Microsoft's Active Directory and Group Policy, which has the best compatibility with Windows and with Microsoft applications, including Office. If AD/GP is already deployed, imagine the burden of deploying a second tool to your 1K/10K/100K computers, setting up the server, learning to use it ... you're not doing that for one application unless it's very valuable. The exception is a tool bundled with the application for its own management, but that's going to have to be efficient to deploy, learn, and use to be worthwhile.

Therefore, for many organizations, any application must be effectively managed by AD/GP, which requires the application's developer to create AD/GP management components.

Do Matrix, Signal, or any other application have system management tools?


Zoom came along with a securre video/voice chat, sure it's American, but it was by far the world leader

Microsoft then used its monopoly in office tools to push Teams to everyone

You can't compete with a trillion dollar company offering your product as a bundle your clients already pay for, even if your product is better. Even VC money runs out eventually


Zoom has long been the most unsecure video/voice application.

Remember how they installed an open web server on people's computers which could be accessed by anyone through the web?

https://infosecwriteups.com/zoom-zero-day-4-million-webcams-...

Apple had to step in and patch it for them:

https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/10/apple-silent-update-zoom-a...

Or when they sent your chat data to Facebook?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-ios-app-sends-data-to-f...

How it was discussed on HN: https://hackernews.hn/item?id=22703000

Or when Zoom was leaking private information?

https://www.vice.com/en/article/zoom-leaking-email-addresses...

Or do you remember how those geniuses rolled their own crypto?

https://citizenlab.ca/research/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypt...

Or maybe you remember that Zoom has the ability to listen in in real-time on meetings held on their platform?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55372493


To be fair, Microsoft already had Skype (for Business) and NetMeeting before that. It's not like they were new to that market. NetMeeting existed for more than a decade before Zoom even came into existence.

Zoom had COVID-19 play in it's favor, that's about it.


Skype for Business is the VoIP component for Teams, now. Sharepoint is the file service for Teams, too.

Basically, Teams is a front end for a bunch of old Mircosoft cloud services... plus chat. Actually more than one chat as teams channels chat is a separate tech stack from private chat. It used to be much more monlothic and then the Sharepoint people got their hooks into it.


Good for you

What are you doing to organize around that?

Or is it just “I decided to leave so my hands are clean” self adoration?


Passive resistance is still resistance.

It's the gateway to any sympathetic contingency.


Where’s the passive resistance?

This user is still on twitter and actively promoting their handle there


"We also as individuals [without billions] have fairly limited capacity to directly act against these things. I donate a fair bit to the EFF for instance and I've sent outreach to representatives multiple times over the years for specific bills and when its possible I vote against surveillance." - from a parallel thread I was commenting in.

I'm totally fine stopping at minimizing my culpability. I sleep just fine at night and don't really jump at purity tests like you seem to want. I'm not other people's savior and I don't want to be. If you want to put your energy into that, I support you.


Then don’t jump into a conversation as though you have some answer if all you’re doing is virtue signaling that you’re detached

> Don't lump me in that "we". I did no such thing. I know exactly how it could be abused and have spent 12 years intentionally not working for companies that perpetuate it.

I don't think you know how to read because I certainly didn't do that. But also go fuck yourself.

This is why no one cares about your causes btw because weird angry little dudes isn't a good look.


Because there is no ethical or logical argument for borders that isn’t pure bigotry and nationalism

This is exactly it, nobody is going to do anything about it

Are you actually doing anything in that direction or is this “tough guy on the internet?”

I see literally zero people doing the equivalent of “breaking the factories” like the luddites attempted


We're not there yet. The luddite movement formed and acted over decades not years.

Do you not see the overwhelmingly negative response to AI produced goods and services from the average westerner?


So, no then. Like I said upstream, nobody is going to anything about it.

At a certain point it’s too late.


I think we'd need a lot more suffering before we have enough people to start that kind of action. If we see 35% unemployment over the next 5 years with insufficient time to adjust, then maybe the pitchforks come out.

So then we should just go slightly slower?

What if it’s over 10 years?


Well, time is one aspect but we'd also need motivation and proper execution for a reasonable chance at successful adaptation. My guess is we'll coast along the boundary. I don't imagine things will move so fast as to cause the sort of general upheaval that I think you're talking about. But I do think things will move fast enough to cause significant harm on a larger scale than we've seen recently in the West.

Yeah, I agree that’s the most likely future.

I’d love to talk with you because I’ve tried to do anarchist organization in the past and it’s super fucking hard

one (started here) was successful but one failed hard

I’d just be curious to trade stories to see if we can learn from each other

My handle@iCloud if you want to reach out


You do understand that is who you’re competing with now right?

My daughter is a excellent student in high school

She and I spoke last night and she is increasingly pissed off that people who are in her classes, who don’t do the work, and don’t understand the material get all A’s because they’re using some form of GPT to do their assignments, and teachers cannot keep up

I do not see a world in the future where you can “come from behind” because all of the people with resources are increasingly not going to need experts who need money to survive to be able to do whatever they want to do

While that was technically true for the last few hundred years it was at least required to deal with other humans and you had to have some kind of at least veneer of communal engagement to do anything

That requirement is now gone and within the next decade I anticipate there will be a single person being able to build a extremely profitable software company with only two or three human employees


Ironically I feel like this may force schools to get better at the core mission of teaching, vs. credentialing people for the next rung on the ladder. What replaces that second function remains to be seen.

I think it actually will just make school even less relevant

>She and I spoke last night and she is increasingly pissed off that people who are in her classes, who don’t do the work, and don’t understand the material get all A’s because they’re using some form of GPT to do their assignments, and teachers cannot keep up

How do they do well on tests, then?

Surely the most they could get away with is homework and take-home writing assignments. Those are only a fraction of your grade, especially at “excellent” high schools.


Wrong way to look at it.

Generally there are 2 types of human intelligence - simulation and pattern lookup (technically simulation still relies on pattern lookup but on a much lower level).

Pattern lookup is basically what llms do. Humans memorize the maps of tasks->solutions and statistically interpolate their knowledge to do a particular task. This works well enough for the vast majority of the people, and this is why LLMs are seen as a big help since they effectively increase your

Simulation type intelligence is able to break down a task into core components, and understand how each component interacts and predict outcomes into the future, without having knowledge beforehand.

For example, assume a task of cleaning the house:

Pattern lookup would rely on learned expereince taught by parents as well as experience in cleaning the house to perform an action. You would probably use a duster+generic cleaner to wipe surfaces, and vaccum the floors.

Simulation type intelligence would understand how much dirt / dust there is, how it behaves. For example, instead of a duster, one would realize that you can use a wet towel to gather dust, without ever having seen this used ever before.

Here is the kicker - pattern type intelligence is actually much harder to attain, because it requires really good memorization, which is pretty much genetic.

Simulation type intelligence is actually attainable by anyone - it requires much smaller subset of patterns to memorize. The key factor is changing how you think about the world, which requires realigning your values. If you start to value low level understanding, you naturally develop this intelligence.

For example, what would it take for you to completely take your car apart, figure out how every component works, and put it back together? A lot of you have garages and money to spend on a cheap car to do this and the tools, so doing this in your spare time is practical, and it will give you the ability to buy an older used car, do all the maintenance/repairs on it yourself on it, and have something that works well all for a lower price, while also giving you a monetizable skill.

Futhermore, LLMs can't reason with simulation - you can get close with agentic frameworks, but all of those are manually coded and have limits, and we aren't close to figuring out a generic framework for an agent that can make it do things like look up information, run internal models of how things would work, and so on.

So finally, when it comes to competing, if you chose to stick to pattern based intelligence, and you lose your job to someone who can use llms better, thats your fault.


At the longest timescale humans aren’t the best at either

I have yet to see a compelling argument demonstrating that humans have some special capabilities that could never be replaced


>You do understand that is who you’re competing with now right?

No. I'm competing with no one.


You may think you are not competing. The people whose money you may want (employers, investors, customers) definitely see you as one of many competitors for their funds.

Exactly

You know at least one

Hey buddy


Technically, not in person ;)

I know lots of people that smoke heavily and I've watched their trajectory over decades. It's a sad story really. I'm pretty sure if you manage it responsibly the benefits may well outweigh the downsides but over the long term it really adds up.

Of course, everybody ages, and people are not usually as sharp as they were in their twenties or earlier. But given that I also have access to a sizeable control group where I don't see that effect I figure it has to have some factual basis too large to be just handwaved away.

Feel free to correct the fact that we haven't met in person by the way, you & yours are always welcome here.


I know - I’m planning my europe visit this summer most likely!

Very nice, send me a heads up a few weeks in advance please.

I started medical cannabis at 38 after leaving the military and it has been completely transformative for my Epilepsy/PTSD/CPTSD/arthritis and all of the other bullshit that came from being in the military for 17 years

100% of my doctors say (incl. Director level at Mt Sinai and orthopedic surgeons for the Washington commnders) are more than delighted with my prescription

so like that’s just your opinion man


Ha +1 for the Lebowski reference.

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